Georgia Fiero Club Forum
All Things Fiero => Tech Tips, Tech Questions => Topic started by: Spartanzz on April 30, 2012, 10:12:03 pm
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Ok so this is going to be my build thread for my 86GT :) The engine is at Lee's and for the moment have not decided if im going to move it to Deans because of the distance from my house. The engine is out of a 2001 Pontiac grand prix GTP, 3800 Series 2 supercharged. I got it for $300 with the only thing being wrong with it is the front main seal being messed up and the timing chain dampener was cracked. Both are easy fixes and will be dealt with during the rebuild. Tomorrow i will be going over to Lee's after work and spend a couple hours tearing the engine down to the short block. If we can im going to try and test the compression on all the cylinders and see what the readings are again. I'm currently talking with multiple people on pennocks about the swap parts. As of now here i my list:
Flywheel, 96 Camaro (from rock auto) $70.20 Machineing/balacing for the swap im not sure how much it will cost right now.
clutch will be ordered from Clutchnet later on
Computer: $100 from Darth Fiero
mounts and battery relocation: Lee will be making these and requested i not tell the price
Fuel pump: Im thnking either the AC delco EP381 $76 from summit racing, or ACDelco EP376?
Exhaust: this is still in the works but im am going to try and keep a trunk friendly exhaust and since i would at advance now i will probably get a muffler from there.
The AC lines i am going to talk to Dean about making them
Harness: $275 from a pennocks member
Then the obvious engine gasket kit and part as needed for the rebuild. I am planning for have about $500-$700 extra for all the lines and extra stuff that may come up. I am going to try and keep a good list of how much everything is going to cost so others can can view how much it may take to do it themselves as well. This will pretty much be done for as little as i can since i will be doing most the work myself and using Lee's garage and tools. This thread will also include everything i do to the car from this point on. Starting tomorrow, or the next day (when i have the time) i will be posting pics of all the progress we make on the engine and the over all swap.
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Here are some pics of my baby girl. These are when i first i got her and from the Polar bear run. I will get some updated pics later on.
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I will be doing this same swap at the same place a little later so I am excited to watch this progress!
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Went to town on the engine yesterday and got it all the way down to only the internals left on it. We pulled the oil pan and for some tiny metal shavings on the pick up screen and a pile of metal shavings on the bottom of the pan...Compression test was good on all cylinders and we didnt see/feel any signs of where the shavings were from. The oil filter that was on it had a nice hole through it though. So will probably replace the bearings in it just to be safe. Overall to tear it down only took me about 2.5 hours :) I got some pics of the tear down they will be posted later today!
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One little note...Buy a Magnetic Oil Drain Plug and paint the head of it a bright color before you install it. That way, if you take it somewhere to get the oil changed you can make certain that they put the right plug back in. (Can you tell I've had this issue?) You'd be suprized at the 'fro' this plug will have on it first oil change after a re-build!
There's also a Chevy oil drain plug gasket that works better than any. It has a built-in seal. I'll try to find the part number for you.
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GM part number 14090908 - Engine Oil Pan Drain Plug Gasket
It's about $3 and worth every penny.
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If you have metal shavings in the pan, it would be a real good idea to have the block and heads flushed and while you're replacing bearings, do the cam bearings, too. If there's metal particles running around in the engine, it came from somewhere and it certainly passed through all the bearings, as well as around the crank and cam.
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Ok here are the pics as promised!
On the stand ready to get started!
Hooking up the starter to test the compression and all cylinders checked out perfect!
Supercharger pulled off
The LIM and valve covers off
Pile O Parts
This is the dampener that was cracked not the best photo but you can see two chunks out of it on the top and bottom
Bottom end off and you can see some of the shavings on the oil screen
And then here is Lee's N/A swap
I got to drive lee's while i was over there and DAMN the thing flies! Both of us are very excited to see what the SC engine is going to be like lol
And as for the shavings im really trying to avoid pulling the heads and taking everything to the machine shop just to keep down on cost and get it done asap. But, from what you all are telling me i pretty much should do that to be safe because of the shavings?
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And as for the shavings im really trying to avoid pulling the heads and taking everything to the machine shop just to keep down on cost and get it done asap. But, from what you all are telling me i pretty much should do that to be safe because of the shavings?
Most likely. But it shouldn't be too hard to examine the rod and main bearings and see if any damage has been done. If the journals are all as smooth as glass, maybe it's OK.
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so you are talking about taking them out and inspecting them? Or checking out the edges as they sit?
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Just take off the main and rod caps. Check the bearing and journal surfaces for scoring. If there's none, all is good.
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The chain tensioner doesn't look right to me. Has the timing cover been off this engine and it sat for a while? The picture makes it look awful dirty and by the photo the shavings in the pickup screen look like chips. It might just be because they aren't really clear.
Check out the lifter valley to see if there's any metal up there. Could be an indication of how much metal circulated around and how far it went. Since you're working with Lee, I'd ask him and let him guide you as to how far to break down and clean the engine.
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yeah the previous owner reaplced the engine and took the timing cover off to check where the ticking noise was coming from found the dampener was crcked and the front main seal was pretty bent up. So instead of fixing it he left it all off and it sat for a year till i bought it.
As for the valley i didnt see any metal pieces there. Only other thing is the oil at the bottom of the pan was like sludge but after sitting for a year that doesn't surprise me. I talked to Lee while i was there he said the compression told us good news and next time im over we are going to do a leak down test to make 100% sure we dont have to pull the heads off. He also was kind of unsure about the metal laying in the bottom of the pan. So i guess next time im over there ill pull the bearings out and inspect them. But, overall the engine looks very good (im my eye) so think i got a steal either way for $300. Just hoping this thing gets going quick! After driving Lee's N/a i REALLY want to get mine in ASAP lol
P.S. dont think Lee will want my old engine anymore. Would anyone be interested in buying it once we get it out?
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Rat Pee 86 has a pretty high mileage engine in his. Once he gets to Florida, the higher ambient temp will cause the oil to run thinner. He may be in the market.
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ok because the only problem that engine has is the oil leak at the rear main seal. And since we are taking it off the trans i will reaplce that seal so all they have to do it drop the engine in.
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Charlie,
Are you saying that the RatPeemobile is destined to explode just because I'm taking it to Florida ? ???
Tom
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When you get down there and start trying to impress those young flat-bellied blondes, I wouldn't give odds on either you or the engine lasting very long :0
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so today i discovered my AC does work! Relay was dead and it had NO freeon in it. So charged it up replaced the relay and boom works...except while the ac is on it kicks on and off constantly...what would cause that?
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That's the computer cycling the compressor so that the evaporator does not freeze over. If it cycles too quickly it indicates that the system is not pressurized properly.
I don't know what that time limit would be. Usually mine will run about 30 seconds and then off for about 5-10 seconds and it'll freeze you out!
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Roger's correct. The system is low on refrigerant. But it's the cycle switch up front on the receiver-dryer that detects the pressure and turns the compressor on and off. The ECM comes into play by kicking the RPM up when the compressor is energized. The system should hold about 32 oz. of R-12 refrigerant. Systems converted to R-134a don't require as much because of the higher expansion rate of R-134a. Only about 80% or 25 oz. R-134a is required.
My technique has been to slightly loosen or depress the schrader valve in the receiver-dryer and drain all the refrigerant, being careful not to drain so fast that the oil blows out. Then I replace the R-134a with 2 12 oz. cans. One can being the type with the stop leak included. I have a gauge on my fill line that lets me know if the system is over-pressurizing or failing to pressurize, indicating blockage or leaks. Just picked up 2 cans at Dollar General and charged the 86SE, yesterday.
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we used two 12oz cans last night and its doing that now. We didnt use stop leak. Right now im just hoping the system doesnt have a leak.
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Did you make sure the system was completely empty first? If not, it could be overcharged and because it builds up pressure so quickly, it will turn off the compressor causing a fast cycle condition. You could have a plugged orifice tube, too.
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well today i herd a hissing after driving the car sounded like it was coming from underneath so i got down and looked and saw a fluid of some kind dripping. The hissing also seems to stop id say about 3 seconds after the car is off...
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Fluid dripping from the area of the passenger side about even with the back edge of the wheel and underneath the area of the fan motor would probably be condensate from the AC drip tube. Normal during and after AC use. Hissing loud enough for you to hear would be a big enough leak that the AC probably would not have operated for more than a few minutes, so that's probably not a refrigerant leak. Not to say that you might not have a leak, though. Sometimes refrigerant will continue to change from a liquid to a gas after it's shut down, just due to back pressure .
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no id say it was the dead center of the car. And so far the AC has been blowing cold all day even after sitting in the drive through for id say 2 mins. IM honestly not too worried about it because i have the 3800SC with the AC compressor so will be putting that in but for the mean time just hope the AC stay cold for a while till i can swap that engine in.
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UPDATE!:
Ok i just ordered my ready built wire harness! Keeping my fingers crossed hoping it will get here soon so i can check it out.
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What color is the fluid that is dripping?
Does it have an odor?
Does it feel oily?
Have you called the EPA?
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ok ordered my wire harness over the weekend and it should be here Thursday. Pictures will be posted when i gets here. Hopefully this month i will be able to take a nice chunk out of the parts list i need because my birthday is the 23rd.
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well wont be able to order parts this next paycheck or two...On the way home i heard a nice scratching/ticking noise coming from what seems like my rear brakes or wheel bearings....It goes away when i tap on the brakes and comes back soon after. So for good measure im going to order all new Wheel bearing/Hub setup, rotors, and pads. And probably do the front GA brake upgrade kit that way i don't have to worry about that later on. But, in other news i get my harness tomorrow so very excited to get it and check it out :)
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Before you spend money, check your brake shields. Maybe one is scraping.
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Noisy wheel bearings wouldn't go away with application of the brakes, either. If when you pull the wheels, you can look at the pad squeakers and see if they're the culprits.
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Ok ill check out both options when I can. And bad news about the wire harness apparently there was a screw up with the address on someone's parts that I can't fond out who. So the package got sent back to the guy who sold it to me so hopefully I can get ahold of him and fix all this asap....
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Another update for today!
Look what i got in the mail!
Looks like they decided to deliver it regardless which makes me VERY happy :)
thing came with ALL the connection including AC, the ICM wires extended for a different location if i want, was also labeled as you can see and it just ready to plug and play when we get the engine ready! IM so excited!!!!
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so update for those who are keeping up with this.
I went and pulled all the rod and main caps out only to discover they were all garbage...one was cracked, two were spun, and one had a nice valley shaved out of it...there was also metal shavings everywhere. So, i pulled the heads off pulled the pistons out and now the plan is to save the money get everything to a machine shop and turn it inot a brand new engine. will take some money so may take a little longer but it must be done!
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If you haven't picked a machine shop yet, I recommend
Will's Auto Machine Shop
3149 Chamblee Dunwoody Rd.
Atlanta, GA 30341
They worked on my engine, and I'm very happy with the result.
They're not very far from where we have club meetings.
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ill look them up. As of the day we pulled the rest apart we were going to take it to the shop Lee got his engine done at. He spent $1,100 on everything including boring the engine out 30 over, new/better pistons, new bearings and cam bearings were punched in. I think im going to stick with stock bore and pistons in order to save some money on all the machine work. We were also going to see if he will get us the entire engine gasket kit. Hopefully not doing those mods to my engine will keep the price under around $900. Because that was i can get the money within the month to get it all done. Thats mainly because i REALLY want to get this done asap so i can have some time to get money for suspension upgrades and brake upgrades so i can have one fun as hell car for run for the hills! And I guess its actually kinda good we found all those bearings were bad. This way i have a zero miles engine all new with no problems that i can beat on without haveing to worry >.<
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Of course, if your cylinders are tapered, scored, or otherwise foobar, you'll need them bored.
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yeah...im really hoping i can just used stock everything. From what i saw when i popped the pistons out every looked good on the walls but when i have some moey saved up im going to take it to our shop and see what he says. I figure its a win win. If they are good then i save money if they aren't the the engine will have more power and better pistons for later mods. Just trying to get the money trying to see if anyone needs to buy a a good laptop or awesome electric guitar that i have >.<
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well today brings bad news...Lee called and said he was able to get my engine and all its parts up to the machine shop and turns out its going to need a lot of work...Three rods have to be replaced, a CAM bearing spin and has to be machined out of the black and replaced. Overall he quoted me at around $1800 for re machine, balance, and fix/replace everything that needs it. A few people told me to stick with it and go ahead and pay that and make sure that engine is good. Many others said to go ahead and find another engine. Currently, i have two leads on two different engines. one if from a lady off of craigslist and she is willing to garontee the engine is good and said if it would give me peace of mine, i could pull the oil pain one main and rod cap off myself to be sure the bearings are ok and there are no metal shavings inside the engine. The other is actually is thanks to Lee and Don, he has a friend who bought his GTP new and is looking to sell it (running and ready to drive with no title) for a good price. So at the moment i am kinda torn with what to do...i do still want to swap the engine and have all ready started getting parts for it so not doing it in not am option lol. But, would like some extra input on what everyone thinks i should do...
Thanks guys
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While that certainly is a lot of money that's about what you'd pay for a remanufactured engine with a warranty from Jasper Engines. You might check with them.
Also, you didn't mention if that $1800 included head work.
Best wishes for whatever you do!
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While there is always a benefit from having an engine overhauled by a machine shop, cost is surely a factor.
In a nutshell; if money was not an issue, I would say have the shop rebuild it and give you a guarantee on their work.
But we know it is costly, so an engine from a running car is probably the more economic way to go.
Once the transplant is done, the donor car can bring in a few $$ as junk or be sold also.
Just my 2 cents.
\D
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I'm wondering why the GTP doesn't have a title. Car has a lein? Stolen? Sounds unusual for a relatively late model car. Even if the engine is in top condition, you will have great difficulty in disposing of the chassis without having the title. No law abiding scrap yard will take it, so it just sits in your driveway or garage. If you check out Jasper Engines, also check Groomes in Nashville for comparison. I found them to be cheaper than Jasper.
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I missed the "No Title" part.
Good catch Charlie.
\D
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It's possible the car has been totaled in a side or rear end collision, so it wouldn't have a title, but a Parts Only Bill of Sale. If that were the case, it might be worthwhile. If it's hit in the front end, though, I'd do a very thorough inspection to be sure none of the engine, especially the crankshaft pullies were hit.
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I talked with Don about the GTP. He said that when the owner got the title back from the lender, after paying it off, that there was a typo in the VIN. One character. He said it can be corrected, but he isn't sure it's worth the trouble.
(I tried to tell him that the engine and tranny would be a natural for the Formula that he recently bought, but he said something about having to sleep in it if he did that. ;) )
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Yeah I talked to him today and he said he is going to try and get it. And by no means am I going to jump in and take it from him. If he wants it to drive around he can ibdont want to male any enemies cuz I love all you guys! But at the ,moment I have one lady saying she has a good engine that she can bring me and is willing to let me pop the pan off and look at the bottom end because she says she isn't trying to cheat anyone she just needs some money but...I'd need someone to help get it to lees and lee said he isn't sure if he cam yet. Would anyone be willing to help haul an emgine from the north druid hill exit on 85 to lees around 4:30 and I will pay for gas plus some for anyone who does :-)
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Chaz, I've offered before and the offer is still open. Just tell me when and where. You have my phone number.
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Ok thanks a ton Charlie! What ill do is give you a call around noon before I call lee and we will discuss details about it all.
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OK got the second engine today. When I turned it over it seemed to hold compression better than the last one. And from the way thelady talked about it she seemed genuine . So hopefully I didn't get screwed a second time around. But will try and get it torn down soon so we can check everything and see where to go.
P.s. thank you so much Charlie!!! I don't think o can thank you enough for helping my get the engine!
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Ok today brings good news! for those who haven't herd the second engine i got has now turned out to be in very good shape! All that needs to be done is fixing and exahust valve leak. Which, we are taking the first set of heads and going to clean them and re-seat the valves and replace the stem seals and slap those on with new bearings on the bottom end and the crank re polished. But, the ball is now going to start rolling on this project and i should be able to get those done quickley now :)
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Ok so fuel pump came in the mail today and picked up all my bearings for the second time because the main bearings were damaged. Checklist now is done to five things: Clutch kit (all ready know where to order it just need the money) Flywheel (same), Send the computer to be tuned, and gasket kit to put it back together and the poly hardware we are going to use to make the mounts for the engine :) So close!
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Ok another update on my part. Engine is coming together now. Got the head torqued down, old cam bearings drove out and new ones drove in. Cam installed and the rear main seal plate attached. Got my tuned computer in the mail as well as the clutch. Just waiting on the flywheel to get here then I can get the bolts we need and then ill get the hoses and lines we need sometime in the next week or two. I will get the pictures I have posted later tonight when I have the time. We have only run into a couple things one being the other engine he is getting swapped >.< and then the exhaust. We are focussing ways to do it so I can keep the trunk.