Post by: jeffwilson34 on August 08, 2015, 10:35:54 pm
The car is an 86SE with the 4cyl. I bought it and it ran fine but I discovered a nightmare wiring jumble that whomever did it is lucky he did not burn the car up. The wiring block (c500) had several wires cut off and then spliced into other wires that did not match color and he had cut the wires at the connectors that I could not see the original color, I got a c500 and wiring harness from Tha Driver off a parts car. (I also want to thank him for getting it to me so fast)
I have been working on repairing the wiring as I am able (I have a very bad back and have no feeling in my right side)
I can work about an hour at a time before having to stop. I have found a couple different wiring diagrams online and the colors or pin location appears to change from year to year and even car to car.
I am trying to make sure I have the connections are correct before doing a final splice with solder and shrink wrap.
I have been able to get it running good and the battery charging although I am going to replace the alternator because it sounds like it has bad bearings. The lights all work but non of the gauges work
Here are my problems and questions.
1. what is the easiest way to remove the alternator from a 4cyl
2. it will not start with the switch, the previous owner had rigged a push button starter by attaching a wire to the solenoid and running it inside, Where does the wire that is supposed to attach to the solenoid come from?
3. I have several wires from the harness that do not match up with anything. Does anyone with an 86se 4cyl wiring diagram, Mt repair manual does not have one.
4 This one is from before I started working on the wiring. The left headlight went up on its own and would not go down. I put it down manually and it stayed down a while then went up on its own again. The motor does not keep running like when the gears are worn out and the light does not come on till I turn it on. I am thinking its most likely a relay but no idea which. (this is a non issue right now just something to repair later)
5. Any members in the East Tennessee area that can work on this wanna make some extra cash.
Thanks in advance.
6. If all else fails anyone want to buy an 86se that runs good. MAKE OFFER
Post by: Fierofool on August 08, 2015, 11:53:28 pm
To remove the alternator from an Automatic, at least on a V6, you must remove the right wheel and wheel well liner skirt, loosen the tie rod end and work the alternator out through the wheel well. I don't know if the 4-cylinder is any different.
Post by: f85gtron on August 09, 2015, 01:09:20 am
Post by: f85gtron on August 09, 2015, 01:14:51 am
And another:
Post by: Tha Driver on August 09, 2015, 07:48:41 am
Jeff, I didn't realize your car was a 4 cylinder. The stuff you got form Paul was from a V6. There may be a few wiring differences. Let me check the Helms Manuals we have to see what schematics are there. It will be at least Sunday afternoon before I will have time.The C-500 & tailight/body harness was from the '86 se, the engine harness plug (that goes into the c-500) was from an '88 base coupe 4 cyl.
I *think* it will work, but I'm not 100% sure...
~ Paul
aka "Tha Driver"
Custom Fiberglass Parts (http://angelonearth.net/customfiberglass/)
Post by: f85gtron on August 09, 2015, 09:28:19 am
Post by: TopNotch on August 09, 2015, 09:31:46 am
Jeff, I didn't realize your car was a 4 cylinder. The stuff you got form Paul was from a V6. There may be a few wiring differences. Let me check the Helms Manuals we have to see what schematics are there. It will be at least Sunday afternoon before I will have time.The C-500 & tailight/body harness was from the '86 se, the engine harness plug (that goes into the c-500) was from an '88 base coupe 4 cyl.
I *think* it will work, but I'm not 100% sure...
~ Paul
aka "Tha Driver"
Custom Fiberglass Parts (http://angelonearth.net/customfiberglass/)
The 88 4-cylinder has DIS ignition, and the 86 4-cylinder has a distributor. So the engine harness is going to be different.
Post by: f85gtron on August 09, 2015, 10:04:24 am
Post by: Fierofool on August 09, 2015, 02:04:49 pm
I tried scanning the Helms Manual but I can't get it into my scanner well enough to scan the full page. Here's a link to 86 wiring schematics. If you click on an image, you'll get a closer view. Then to the right, click on View Image. You might be able to print it out or save it to file.
https://www.google.com/search?q=86+fiero+wiring+diagram&tbm=isch&imgil=xz--XlqiRE9mjM%253A%253BcpU5LBt4l-7GLM%253Bhttp%25253A%25252F%25252Fwww.fixya.com%25252Fcars%25252Ft5202181-need_wiring_diagram_1986&source=iu&pf=m&fir=xz--XlqiRE9mjM%253A%252CcpU5LBt4l-7GLM%252C_&biw=1280&bih=889&usg=__7bd1opVfQ00RLoVfEGXzuu3DXQs%3D&ved=0CDgQyjdqFQoTCPb4idrHnMcCFcfMgAodrGwDow&ei=gZLHVba0JseZgwSs2Y2YCg#imgrc=_&usg=__7bd1opVfQ00RLoVfEGXzuu3DXQs%3D
Post by: jeffwilson34 on August 10, 2015, 01:01:34 am
I took a break on working on it today and plan on starting back tomorrow
Post by: jeffwilson34 on August 13, 2015, 01:14:02 am
I have worked 3 days trying to get this thing together right. I am ready to throw in the towel and sell it. I have tried several different wiring diagrams and non seem to match what is in this car. Someone before me had rigged the harness. I noticed they had completely bypassed the c500 on several connections so I have no idea what is supposed to go where. There are several green wires that are the same color as well as 3 white ones. I think at the moment I have some of those wrong. Tonight I was getting close because more things are working correctly, BUT I screwed my back up again and had to sit on the grass outside for 3 hours before I could get in the house.
It will start and run fine, (have to jump the starter solenoid with a push button inside, it was was like that when I bought it )
Issues as of right now.
1. non of the gauges work (the did work at one point so I must have screwed something up)
2. will not start unless key is on
3. headlights work (one needs new gears that I have)
4. front parking, emergency and signal lights all work
5. left rear lights work
6. 3rd brake light works
7. Right rear lights do not work (bulbs are fine, ground is good lights work with a hot jumper wire)
8. Radio will not come on, (works when a hot jumper wire is touched to its fuse, The clock does keep time and presets stay until battery is unhooked so it is getting power to the always hot section)
9. dash illumination lights work fine
10. windows work when key is on
11. Testing for power at the fuse box shows only a few fuses have power with key on or off. ( I am thinking there may be a fuseable link I am missing somewhere blown)
12. Drives fine an transmission works great.
13. It idles good.
14. The alternator works good and multimeter shows 13.6V at battery when running.
15. I have no idea about the AC because the belt was off when I got it but I doubt it works
16. The cooling fan was rigged with a switch when I bought it but I did trigger it to come on at the c500 at one time so its wires must still be good just and it may actually work but without a temperature light or gauge I do not want to let it run without the fan on. The engine and transmission are the only things that work right.
18. Needs headliner
Post by: Roger on August 13, 2015, 01:07:15 pm
You have made great strides in your repair quest.
There are times when we all must back away and reflect to see this.
Do not dwell on it at this time. Relax and lighten your heart.
Solutions will come to you when you least expect it and you will rise
above this disappointment.
The learning process on this addiction affects us all and you are not alone.
We have all been there.
We are proud of your accomplishments and you must realize what you have learned.
Some day we will need to call on your expertise and be grateful.
Once you have everything working as it should you will be glad you did not sell
the thing that sooner or later drives us all to madness.
Post by: jeffwilson34 on August 14, 2015, 02:01:38 am
Turns out the C500 block is not connecting at some of the pins others have weak connections that will not handle the load of my test light which is a normal 1157 bulb The voltmeter shows power at 12-13 volts and it will turn on an led 1157 bulb but fails with the normal bulb. My original c500 had something that looked like black tar all in it. The new one I got had some but not as bad as my original. I used one of the original plugs instead of the one sent me because the wire colors were different and it had a couple empty slots in different places and the c500 pins matched with my plug. I tried cleaning it out with everything from electrical contact cleaner, brake cleaner, and various other things.
It looks clean but the tar seems to grow back every day and pins that were clean one day and dirty the next. This may be the reason for some of the bypassed connections that were made before i got it. We were able to get the rear lights working by bypassing the c500.
I am going to take a break till Monday. I still need to get the gauges working. I may try and find the wires that work them and bypass the the c500 on those also.
The radio has me confused because it will power on when I apply a jumper wire to one of the green wires at the c500. But it should get power from the switch which does get power and works the windows and turn signals.
No diagrams I have saw for the c500 list the radio. Why would the power for it run from under the dash back through the back around the engine compartment and then back under the dash?
Can any one give me some pointers on the wiring of the tach, temp gauge and light, voltage light and gauge. and speedometer. If it comes down to it I guess I could run new wires to them. If I do not sell it I may end up just going and buying several spools of wire and making a custom harness working one system at a time.
Post by: f85gtron on August 14, 2015, 05:30:48 am
Post by: Fierofool on August 14, 2015, 07:47:13 am
Post by: jeffwilson34 on August 14, 2015, 03:58:34 pm
The black tar-like stuff is a weatherproofing Dielectric grease compound. It should be there. You'll find it in most of your relays and heavy voltage connections. Before completing the assembly, get yourself some tubes of dielectric grease compound and liberally fill all the terminal cavities and around the outside surfaces of the terminal block to prevent water shortages.
i thought that was what it was, but it seems to be messing up the connections.
Is there a place to buy new pins that fit in the blocks? I have some for the connectors on my corvette but they are not the same type and the place I got the Vette pins does not have any that match the ones in the Fiero.
I think the reason the different wiring and and things is Pontiac used whatever off the shelf parts were available when they were making the Fiero due to the limited budget they had from GM who did not want another GM product to possible pull sales from their Cash Cow the Corvette and the Fiero could have easily pulled some Vette customers if it had a bit more power. Having owned an 86 Vette and an 87 V6 Fiero GT I can speak from experience and say that the Fiero was a better handling and smoother ridding car. The vette had much more power and could outrun the Fiero on a interstate, (although my 87 was doing fair in keeping up with a Vette until somewhere above 120MPH the wind caused the headlight doors to pop open like air brakes :o which in turn almost caused a change of underwear till I realized what happened) but if you were to take a stock 87GT 5 speed and stock Base 87 Vette with that crap 4+3 manual / automatic hybrid transmission the Vette had at that time to a road like the dragon and do timed runs I would put my money on the Fiero.
Post by: TopNotch on August 14, 2015, 04:29:05 pm
Back in the days when slot car racing was popular, sometimes racers would spray the commutators of their electric motors with WD-40 to make their cars go faster.
Post by: jeffwilson34 on August 14, 2015, 07:36:16 pm
Man I remember slot car racing, I never saw anyone around here using wd40
we did a lot of things to get that added edge, from rewinding the armature, using magnets as weight to keep the car from sliding up the banked track, and even adding capacitors to provide power if the brushes lost contact at a bad part of the track.
I think at one time I had more money invested in my slot cars than my real car.
Post by: jeffwilson34 on August 19, 2015, 10:32:15 pm
This will bypass the C500 and whomever gets it after I sell it will hate me but I plan on leaving a note explaining why.
I will be the 1st to admit I am not the best at wiring things and have a coup
le questions.
DO the gauges has a HOT (positive) connection at all times an use the ground as a signal?
Does anyone know the color of the wire coming from the key switch that engages the starter? On the same system what color is the wire going to the solenoid and where does it come from? I found a thicker red wire with a round terminal tucked away in the wrapping that also contained the O2 sensor. It will not reach the starter and has no power on it nor is it grounded.
I can get most things running except the gauges, the heater stays on hot, I can not get the AC compressor to enguage the clutch but I can get hear the cruise control clicking when power is applied to 3 different wires. I have them tied off for now marked as Cruise control.
I can not get over how smooth it runs and the transmission shifts perfect. It will sit and idle a bit high when 1st started cold but after a few minutes the idle slows down to a normal slow idle.
I drove her around tonight and according to the GPS i put 125 miles on her and averaged 32 MPG and got up to over 100 MPH (this was on a private road that the state gave to a farmer when they took part of land for a new road)
Post by: jeffwilson34 on August 20, 2015, 11:48:20 pm
Just got back from a nice long drive out in some old small country roads
I have the oil pressure, gauge working, the charging idiot light now works, the speedometer and odometer is working, radio is working. all the lights other than the back up lights work. The gas gauge even seems to be giving correct information. The cooling fan turns itself off and on as needed.
What is not working is the Tachometer, and temp gauge and starting with the key.
I can get an aftermarket temp gauge and tachometer if needed but would really like to fix it so it starts with the key
Anyone have any experience tearing the dash apart to get to the key switch? If all else fails I could run a fused hot wire from the start position on the key switch down through the dash and tie into the current push button start.
I am going to take tomorrow and rebuild the bad headlight motor and bleed the breaks because they are a bit too spongy for my liking.
I know if and when I sell it, spmewhere down the kine someone will hate when they see how it is repaired.
Post by: Fierofool on August 21, 2015, 12:12:31 am
It's been a while since getting into an ignition switch swap, so I won't try to give you wrong information.
To test the temp gauge, go to the engine bay and unplug the harness at the corner of the head, just upper left of the number 5 cylinder. It should be a green wire and a green wire with tracer. The sending unit should have a round head with a split in one side of it.
With the ignition on, insert a probe (paper clip) into one of the female terminals and bump it onto the engine block. Either the gauge will move or the idiot temp light will illuminate. Now, put the probe into the other female terminal and bump against the block again, and the one that didn't work the first time should work this time. One of the circuits is for the gauge, the other is for the light. That will tell you if your circuit is good or bad.
To test the sending unit, let the engine be cold. Unplug the harness and using a multimeter set to ohms, put the negative probe against the base and the positive against one of the male terminals. One of them may not give a reading. I think it will be the light circuit. Try the other and compare your reading with the chart listed here:
http://www.gafiero.org/bbs/index.php?topic=641.msg4644#msg4644
Post by: f85gtron on August 21, 2015, 02:51:02 pm
Post by: jeffwilson34 on August 24, 2015, 12:07:46 am
Now I need to locate the tach and Temp wires and I am in almost finished.
The starter has me lost because I think the switch may be defective. I may put a secret push button starter switch behind the center console
Another thing that has me curious in the hidden switch to activate the engine fan. The fan works as it should and comes on and goes off on its own
Post by: Raydar on August 24, 2015, 06:21:02 am
...
The starter has me lost because I think the switch may be defective. I may put a secret push button starter switch behind the center console
Depending upon the transmission type, there will either be a large yellow (or large purple) wire under the dash. 12 volts to that wire should activate the starter. If it's a manual, that wire will go through a switch on the clutch pedal. Maybe even change colors there. If it's an automatic, it'll go through the P/N switch on the trans.
I apologize for the redundancy, if you already know all of this.
Post by: jeffwilson34 on August 24, 2015, 09:39:35 pm
If I can trace that one back as far as possible then tie into the wire that is tied into the solenoid I can work with that till I have time to hit the P/N in the transmission. (automatic)
Post by: Raydar on August 25, 2015, 06:15:18 am
It goes through that connector to the P/N switch on the tranny. From the P/N switch, it's a big purple wire to the starter solenoid.
Post by: jeffwilson34 on August 25, 2015, 09:19:11 pm
Not perfect and still has a few things to work on but I feel safe driving it.
It had been sitting under a tarp when I was not working on it with my chair, work lights, etc...
Today I drove it round the block, pulled into the drive, and then put everything that had been sitting there with it like it was on life support or something up.
After everything was put up, I got in and fired it up and took off down the road again. I swear two of my neighbors gave me the thumbs up and clapped when I drove by.
I gave it a good little test run
Thanks to all who have helped.
Finally today I got most everything working.
Starts with the key switch, not a jerry rigged push button.
Tach works
fuel gauge works
Oil pressure gauge works
speedometer works and the speed it says agrees with my GPS
All lights work *will need new headlight motors, I tore one down to rebuild and found that the brushes that supply power to the armature were missing and somehow it had been working off just the copper making contact with the armature.
There is a local guy with a set of 88 motors and assemblies but no wiring. from my research on the differences It appears I need the control box in order for those to work.
Still Can not get the Temp Guage or light to work but the fan does kick on when it sits running a bit.
I have not even started on the cruise control or AC but I am happy for now.
I did finally end up bypassing the C500 and currently the connections are male / female spade connectors because I found it easier to use them to change wire combinations. When all is finished they will be soldered and double covered with shrink wrap.
Post by: Fierofool on August 25, 2015, 10:15:27 pm
Post by: jeffwilson34 on August 26, 2015, 01:12:07 am
I think the owner that hacked the harness did so because of a bad fuesable link.
Lots of issues I had originally went away when I installed the new distribution block with new (used) fuesable links.
If I have to I can get a cheap TEMP gauge that the probe is inserted into the radiator by removing the hose and use it till I have more time to track down the reason the onboard ones does not work.
Still have a few more things that need done like bleed the breaks because they feel spongy, Find 2 good headlight motors I thought I had found a set locally but they were off a 1988 GT. fix the AC, find a luggage rack and remove the wing. or fix the holes where the luggage rack was attached and paint the wing.
At the moment the wiring harness looks like crap but that is temporary. I do not want to tidy it up till I have everything fixed. I have shrink wrap around all the connections that have power or are grounded. and electrical tape on top of any connector that is nit connected to anything. My plan is to fix all the wires with solder and heat shrink then make a waterproof enclosure from a radioshack project box and some clear sealent I have left over from repairing a fish tank.
I plan on making it to the run to the hills, barring any unforeseen events/
Post by: Raydar on August 26, 2015, 06:22:12 am
Congrats on your diligence and resourcefulness.
Post by: Fierofool on August 26, 2015, 08:01:14 am
cmmsewell @ Gmail Dot com
Post by: jeffwilson34 on August 26, 2015, 03:09:11 pm
That's the quickest I have ever seen anyone go from "eff this" to "It lives!"
Congrats on your diligence and resourcefulness.
LOL
My F#@k this came at the time I had been lying on the ground for a few hours unable to get up because I had screwed my back up again. It still hurts like heck when I move the wrong way and my leg feels like I have an iron sitting on my upper thigh.
My big breakthrough was finding out that the C500 was not making good connection. I think the grease in my original one was contaminated and when I plugged my old plugs into the new one it screwed ty up also because only about half of the connections had good continuity.
Ditching the c500 and going with direct wires solved most issues. Now I have to clean it up and still need to fix the temperature gauge and headlights but it is now drivable.