Post by: GTRS Fiero on February 02, 2017, 09:24:28 pm
Post by: Fierofool on February 02, 2017, 10:44:33 pm
Post by: Raydar on February 02, 2017, 10:52:16 pm
After I took it back apart and built it up, it was nearly as quick as my 4.9. (In retrospect, probably not worth the money, unless you just want it to remain stock appearing, which mine didn't, anyway.)
Yeah. Big difference.
Post by: GTRS Fiero on February 03, 2017, 10:38:36 am
Post by: f85gtron on February 03, 2017, 01:10:14 pm
Post by: GTRS Fiero on February 03, 2017, 01:21:28 pm
I thought even Raydar said he wouldn't do it again.
I'm really good on the complaining side (I can find a problem) but not so good on the fix side. Virtually any problem a car may have, I can find it.
Post by: Fierofool on February 03, 2017, 02:46:34 pm
Now, as for finding problems. I have difficulty finding them, but they always seem to find me.
Post by: GTRS Fiero on February 03, 2017, 03:02:25 pm
(On another car) got a leak from my oil pan. Took it apart to replace the gasket. While it was out, saw that the timing cover is leaking, also. Took off water pump to replace that. While the water pump is off, replacing it, which necessitates replacing the thermostat housing, and gives me a new thermostat. While things are apart, dropped the transmission to replace the rear main seal. New plugs and wires while I'm in there, and of course fluids flush. I had originally just intended to replace the shocks. Note that this is an '03 with 254K on it, and mostly original. While the timing cover was off, looked at the timing chain. Add that to the list. I think I've got $1,000 in parts.
Can't really complain. It's been a good vehicle.
My current Fiero has been solid. My biggest issue with it is a lack of seating. Half of my family won't fit.
Oddly, its 0-60 is the same as the new Volt, but the Volt sure feels slower. What is the wording? The Volt manages 0-60 in 7.8s? I entered the turn lane, put my foot on the floor, went up the ramp, and tried to merge with 60MPH traffic, and the car still wasn't up to 60, and I overran the merge lane. I've never had my Fiero fail to make 60 on a ramp.
Post by: Raydar on February 03, 2017, 06:08:15 pm
...Building a 2.8, 3.1 or 3.4 does cost money. You can get as much into one to get up near 200 hp as you can by just dropping in a 3800NA, starting at over 200hp. Not speaking for Raydar, but I suspect that's what he was getting at.
You nailed it. The real killer was that I started with a Grooms rebuild, since I wasn't comfortable starting out with a "pullout" and rebuilding it (or NOT rebuilding it, as the case may be.)
It was nice, but all it did was make me want more. (That's the "first rule", after all... "If 'more' is enough, then 'too much' is just right." Right?)
Anyway, I took it back apart, sold the stock heads (with 1.6 rockers that I had added) and sent a spare set of heads to be "worked". I also bought a ported lower intake from Darrell Morse, to complement the worked heads. I don't remember what the porting on the lower cost, but I had $800 in just the heads, including porting, valve job, and installation of my springs. I added a bored out throttle body, Trueleo intake, a Crane 272 cam, 19lb Bosch injectors, and FOCOA headers.
The engine ran very well. It would outright scream, for what it was. It had enough power to absolutely shatter a Getrag differential. (I also swapped the Getrag for the automatic, while I had it apart.) It really seemed as strong, although not quite as "torquey", as my 4.9.
I forget what the financial tally was when I was done, but it was stunning.
I could have easily bought a 3800SC (which the yards were pretty much full of, because they usually outlasted the cars they are installed in) and all the swap pieces, for what I had in my 3.4. And I would have started out with more horsepower, right out of the box, than I could have ever achieved with the 3.4, short of hanging a turbo on it, which I don't have the expertise to do.
And since the 3800 has a huge aftermarket, stupid power is available with bolt-ons. (Pulleys, rockers, etc.)
With that said, I am contemplating a 3.4 DOHC for the "ghost in the machine". Simply because it will pretty much bolt in using stock Fiero brackets, I feel comfortable doing the harness and ECM, and I have a line on an inexpensive one, with a crapload of spare parts. :D
(The DOHC is reputed to be a lovely motor for a manual trans. A 3800 SC, not so much. But that's a whole 'nother topic.)
Post by: GTRS Fiero on February 03, 2017, 07:01:01 pm
While we're at it, what was wrong with the 1.6 rockers? My understanding was that the 1.52 rockers, with the 260 cam were the safer way to go, but I guess with a rework of the heads...
I'm also curious if the 3.4 is as reliable as the 2.8.
Post by: f85gtron on February 03, 2017, 09:35:49 pm
3.4 May be more reliable than the 2.8 because of better oil galleys and block webbing.....supposedly.
Post by: Raydar on February 04, 2017, 12:58:53 am
What's wrong with rebuilding a pullout?
Nothing, if you possess the necessary tools and (especially) skills. I had neither.
Quote
While we're at it, what was wrong with the 1.6 rockers. My understanding was that the 1.52 rockers, with the 260 cam were the safer way to go, but I guess with a rework of the heads...
I'm also curious if the 3.4 is as reliable as the 2.8.
Since I already was redoing everything, I just decided to install the cam that I wanted, instead of using a "smaller" cam and then using the 1.6 rockers to augment it. Just made sense to me to do it that way. (A turbo was never a consideration. Don't much care for them. Just a personal preference.)
Aside from that, I had read numerous stories about people wiping out brand new Crane cams, in the first 500-1000 miles. Figured the 1.6 rockers wouldn't help that situation any.
Post by: GTRS Fiero on February 04, 2017, 08:48:15 am
Even with porting the intake and exhaust, and using a bored throttle body, it would seem that, if you changed the stock cam to a 272 and bored out the 3.4, that the power would move to the upper RPM range, where the larger engine would have a breathing problem. Perhaps not with the Truelo intake, though.
Post by: GTRS Fiero on February 04, 2017, 09:21:57 am
If you bore an engine, say .060, doesn't that compromise the block?
Post by: Raydar on February 04, 2017, 10:28:37 am
How about just a stock 3.4? Anyone done that? How would that compare to a 2.8?
Even with porting the intake and exhaust, and using a bored throttle body, it would seem that, if you changed the stock cam to a 272 and bored out the 3.4, that the power would move to the upper RPM range, where the larger engine would have a breathing problem. Perhaps not with the Truelo intake, though.
My "stock" (rebuilt) 3.4 felt like the engine the Fiero should have had, to begin with. 20 extra HP was nice, but as Charlie posted, the real difference was the torque.
Everything conspires to choke the 3.4, when it's dressed up like a 2.8. The upper intake is "just enough" for a 2.8, but it really strangles the 3.4 on the top end.
Al of that head work, cam, and headers are great, up until 4500 or 5K, and then it's essentially all done.
Either a Trueleo or "Dawgs modified" stock intake will work in concert with all the other mods.
My 3.4 engine was a "Grooms re-man". It's the identical engine that the Fiero Factory was using in all their swaps. I purchased it through Ed, and installed it myself.
In my context, I use "rebuilt" and "re-man" interchangeably, although some would argue that there is a difference.
For what it's worth, before mine was even broken in, it blew a head gasket, due to a broken head bolt. (I dollied the car to Ed, and Grooms paid him to R'n'R the engine so that they could "re-rebuild" it.)
There were also some oil consumption problems with the GM 3.4 crate engines that used to be available. GM refused to warranty them, because they were designed as a replacement for the 2.8 in an S10. They argued that it was an "improper application", and basically told the Fiero folks to stuff it.
So, anything you do can be a crapshoot, no matter how much you spend, up front.
Boring a 2.8 to a 3.4 *can* compromise the block. ARI does it that way, but they test each block that they bore, to make sure the walls are not compromised. It really depends upon the individual casting. Even if it doesn't, there's no room left to rebuild it beyond a 3.4. (Factory 3.4s start out with a thicker casting, so that's not a problem.)
I'm not sure what the limit on overboring any particular engine is. It depends upon each individual engine, as much as anything.
My brother, back in the day, rebuilt a 265 Chevy into a 283. There was some concern regarding the cylinder wall thickness. I was only about 5, so I don't remember much of anything beyond that.
Link to ARI... http://www.engine-parts.com/GMV6/gm28stroker.html
Edit - Lots of dead links on that page. They may be out of business.
Post by: GTRS Fiero on February 04, 2017, 11:02:48 am
Post by: Raydar on February 04, 2017, 11:05:42 am
3.1s also have this advantage, somewhat. (2.8 and 3.1 use the same bore size.)
The 3.4's larger bore doesn't hurt any, though.
Post by: GTRS Fiero on February 04, 2017, 11:09:48 am
Post by: GTRS Fiero on February 04, 2017, 02:51:38 pm
The engine ran very well. It would outright scream, for what it was. It had enough power to absolutely shatter a Getrag differential. (I also swapped the Getrag for the automatic, while I had it apart.) It really seemed as strong, although not quite as "torquey", as my 4.9.
With that said, I am contemplating a 3.4 DOHC for the "ghost in the machine". Simply because it will pretty much bolt in using stock Fiero brackets, I feel comfortable doing the harness and ECM, and I have a line on an inexpensive one, with a crapload of spare parts. :D
(The DOHC is reputed to be a lovely motor for a manual trans. A 3800 SC, not so much. But that's a whole 'nother topic.)
Yes, I read that the 3.4 DOHC is a great engine for the Fiero, as is the quad 4.
Doesn't the club's fastback Formula have a Getrag mated to the 3.4? I thought Archie used the Getrag with his V8 swaps. Surely the V8 has more torque than a 3.4PR. Which auto transmission did you use, and how was it for reliability with the torque?
Post by: Fierofool on February 04, 2017, 04:11:51 pm
Jasper was the same way. No 2.8's as cores. Grooms offered a warranty on their 3.4 when installed in a Fiero, thanks to the success that Ed Parks at The Fiero Factory had. Jasper nor GM would, saying it was an improper application though GM would warranty it for the S10 with a carburetor.
When I started searching for a 3.4 for a former member, GM was selling crate 3.4's. Like Raydar said, they were to go into the early model S10's as a replacement for the 2.8 carbureted engine. Mind you, an engine that was never carbureted to go into a carbureted truck. They offered a 3 year, 36K mile warranty for this application.
GM wouldn't give me a warranty if it went into a Fiero because the Fiero never had a 3.4 and because the starter boss had to be redrilled for the left side. GM crate 3.4's were selling for about $2700 plus core for a long block, valve covers, pan and timing set. No timing cover.
Jasper held pretty much the same reasoning for not warrantying it when installed in a Fiero. They were a little cheaper. Seems like they were somewhere around $2300 plus core.
Grooms quoted a price of around $1600 or $1700 plus shipping to Atlanta of about $75, I think. No core. Since it wasn't going to be installed by a certified mechanic, they would only offer an 18 month warranty, unlimited miles. Turns out, the mechanic that installed it for us was a certified mechanic, but did Fiero work at his home. The engine didn't need any warranty. It's still running today after at least 10 years.
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Post by: GTRS Fiero on February 04, 2017, 04:21:07 pm
When the engine is bored, doesn't it require more air? Does the larger bore kill the top end?
Interesting spoiler.
Post by: Fierofool on February 04, 2017, 04:51:00 pm
I don't know what the top end is, but you've seen some of the videos filmed from my car. In those, I often hit 4500 rpm. I regularly run up to 4500, and I don't feel any drop out. I've never knowingly pushed it past that. I recognize what it sounds like at that rpm and without looking, that's where I let off or change gears. At Road Atlanta, my top speed was 105. Simply because I was too chicken to come off the long backstretch any faster and hit the chicane.
I think, as some others, that the 3.4 can breathe very well up to the stock engine's limits. The Camaro and Firebird throttlebodies were no larger bore than the Fiero's. The real bottleneck is just that, the bottleneck between the throttlebody and the plenum. Some have opened that portion up and gotten more out of the engine, without doing anything to the plenum, itself.
The 3.4 is simply the most free horsepower you can get when you replace a broken or tired 2.8. It costs just as much to rebuild a 2.8 as to rebuild a 3.4.
I don't know that I'd bore a 2.8 beyond .040, but supposedly the 3.1 in the Formula Fastback is bored .060 over. He believed the engine came from a FWD van. Chosen because of the heavier block and cylinder wall castings and sleeve. That car's been around for a while, so apparently it was a safe venture.
Post by: GTRS Fiero on February 04, 2017, 04:55:41 pm
Similarly, what would happen to the 2.8 if you opened up the intake and exhaust? It already struggles for air.
Post by: Fierofool on February 04, 2017, 06:34:06 pm
Post by: Raydar on February 04, 2017, 11:01:11 pm
If you pushed the 3.4 past 4500RPM, what would happen?
...
With a stock intake, it would just sort of make a lot of noise, but not much more power.
Once I did all the stuff with mine (still with a stock, rebuilt bottom end) I would regularly spin it to 6K. Took it to 6500 a time or two. Never floated any valves or broke any engine parts.
Keep in mind that the DOHC uses essentially the same crank and rods, and those will spin to 7K all day long.
The Getrag that I killed was... tired. But I beat the snot out of it, too.
Everyone used to post on Pennocks that they had weak differentials. I simply proved it, again.
This is the main reason that I have a New Venture T-550 (aka "Beretta Getrag") bolted to my 4.9. The later Getrags had sturdier differential assemblies. (There's also the hydraulic release bearing that eliminates the sometimes problematic slave cylinder. But that's a whole 'nother topic.)
I don't drive this one "easy", but I also do my best not to shock load it. To kill the Getrag with the 3.4, I had to wind it up, and then side-step the clutch. I kind of learned my lesson from that one.
Post by: GTRS Fiero on October 10, 2017, 06:19:45 pm
To kill the Getrag with the 3.4, I had to wind it up, and then side-step the clutch. I kind of learned my lesson from that one.
What does side-stepping the clutch accomplish? Spinning the tires?
Post by: Raydar on October 10, 2017, 06:49:16 pm
What does side-stepping the clutch accomplish? Spinning the tires?
Holy resurrection, Batman!
But yeah. Pretty much. The shock breaks the tires loose.
It also breaks differentials, as I so skillfully proved. :D
Post by: GTRS Fiero on October 10, 2017, 07:04:18 pm
Post by: Raydar on October 10, 2017, 07:14:36 pm
Post by: ron768 on October 12, 2017, 10:13:01 am
It also breaks differentials, as I so skillfully proved. :D I have done this with the stock 2.8 with the stock 4 sp in my 85 2M6. I haven't posted alot about my experience with the 2.8 but I would guess that I have run a stock 2.8 about as hard as anyone. Yes, I broke a 4sp manual trans by dumping a lot of rpm's (redlined) in 1st gear. Cost me $379.00 back in 1988 to get it fixed. Car had just over 36 K miles and NO, Pontiac would NOT cover it(of course it was out of warrenty) . My 85's original 2.8 lasted til it had 179K miles on it and spun a rod bearing a couple of years ago. The motor in it now is a 3.1? rebuild. We are still working on getting the fuel/air ratio right, but it runs good. When stock, my car would run out to 123 mph on gps. I have yet to find out what this motor will push the car to.
Post by: GTRS Fiero on October 12, 2017, 05:43:35 pm
Post by: Fierofool on October 12, 2017, 06:00:29 pm
Post by: TopNotch on October 12, 2017, 06:05:30 pm
Post by: GTRS Fiero on October 12, 2017, 07:00:57 pm
Post by: Fierofool on October 12, 2017, 07:28:56 pm
My headlight doors never tried to open but the side windows started to vibrate from the wind buffeting. And I thought my 17 year old daughter was going to penetrate the center console and arm rest with her fingers. It was an open stretch of 4-lane with no cars in sight for a mile ahead. I got a good half mile downhill run from highway speed, then it leveled out.
Post by: GTRS Fiero on October 12, 2017, 07:34:20 pm
And I thought my 17 year old daughter was going to penetrate the center console and arm rest with her fingers.
LOL! What were you teaching her?
Post by: Fierofool on October 12, 2017, 07:38:41 pm
Post by: ron768 on October 13, 2017, 08:58:25 am
Post by: GTRS Fiero on October 13, 2017, 03:46:02 pm