Georgia Fiero Club Forum
All Things Fiero => Tech Tips, Tech Questions => Topic started by: PK on September 13, 2018, 04:51:21 am
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Following on from the storage endeavours, Dangermouse unused for several years but started every ahem 6 months or so refused to start for the first time ever!
That Todd guy very kindly gathered and posted a load of well deserved primary ignition components but there was absolutely no point in trying to get the Fiero going until the main issue of damp was resolved...... So now the Fiero will get some attention.
It's a 1986 2.8 V6. It will crank but not fire. The battery is fine. The tach does not bounce or move a muscle.
I have a complete dist. unit. Coil, leads plugs etc . Sent by Todd but also have an emergency ignition control module in the car. It's an "E-Tron duralife". I have no idea of good/bad US available brands. My initial plan was to try this ICM unless anyone else has some words of wisdom or suggestions for plan of attack?
I do not enjoy electrics, probably due to really impressive colour blindness and the insistence of wires being colour coded.... We just never got on.
Cheers
PK
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Possible causes in order of likelihood:
Bad ICM
Bad pick up coil
Bad Ignition coil to ICM cable
Bad ignition coil
Bad power to the ignition coil
Bad connection, possibly at the C500 connector
Bad ECU
When you crank the engine, does the service engine light illuminate?
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The service enjun light comes on with ignition and stays on whilst cranking. Haven't looked for error codes or anything yet.
Thanks for the list.l, that's really helpful.
Cheers
PK
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So, the ECU should be OK.
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No-Start is caused by either No Spark or No Fuel. Do the easy checks first before replacing parts.
First, let's find which you don't have. The easiest and fastest to check is spark. Grab a spare spark plug and pull one of the spark plug wires on the trunk side. Insert the plug into the plug wire and hold it against the exhaust manifold while someone tries to start the engine. If it doesn't fire, your problem is ignition. If it does fire, the problem is fuel.
If it doesn't fire, swap out the ignition control module. If it still doesn't fire, swap out the ignition coil. As a last resort, replace the pickup coil or the distributor.
No Fuel can be a blown fuel pump fuse, a dead fuel pump, or a clogged fuel filter, or bad fuel pressure regulator.
Check the fuel pump fuse and the Inj 1 and Inj 2 fuses. Check all fuses. The Fiero has some funky crossover circuits that control things you wouldn't ever think of as being associated.
Remove the cap from the fuel pressure regulator. Try to start the engine, then standing back at arm's length, use something to depress the valve stem in the fuel pump valve. It should give a good shot of fuel. You don't want to have your face near it. If fuses are good but no fuel, you may have a bad pump.
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Thanks again. No error codes stored, not that I expected any.
I am quite sure it's ignition. Can hear fuel pump and smell fuel. There are no glamorous assistants here but I am sure that I can rig up some one man check involving phone video recorder and some spark plug holding apparatus.... With the bonus that I will be nowhere near that electrickery stuff.
Has anyone heard of the E-Tron dura life Ignition module?
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Try spraying starting fluid into the throttle body, and then attempt to start. If it starts and then dies quickly, the problem is probably no fuel. If it doesn't start, the problem is probably no spark.
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A foreign body!!?
Sat loose on the inside of the distributor is a "U" shaped piece of shiny metal. It has serated edges on the inside edges of the U and a dimple either for connection or location!!! No idea where this SHOULD live, if anywhere!
Have photo but only have tellingbone, no PC so can't post.
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Has anyone heard of the E-Tron dura life Ignition module?
Just get one made by Welles. Cheaper and it has a lifetime warranty. For a slight upgrade, NAPA sells Echlin and Belkin. Not sure who makes them, but they're usually made in Mexico or Canada instead of in one of the Asian countries.
Edit: Forgot where you were. You may not have a NAPA near you. :D
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We don't have a welles, a NAPA or indeed any brand or parts store that could source me Fiero parts! Welcome to my world, it's sometimes a tad painful.
This E-Tron has "made in Canada" printed on it. The old one is a GM unit but I guess no longer available.
I am guessing as standard the pick up coil has a plug carrying the two wires to the ICM? mine is just two separate wires not in a connection block.
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You need to be sure that the white and green wires each go to the proper terminal when connecting to the ICM. I just went out to check my spare distributor, but it looks like it's another part that's decided to run away from home at some point. Maybe someone else will jump in to identify terminals. I do have a distributor without an ICM or terminal end. I insulated the terminal ends by slipping a piece of shrink tubing over each and shrinking it down.
Also, twist the pickup coils leads around one another to make them as short as possible and still allow them to connect. takes up the slack and keeps from pinching them when you put the distributor cap on.
To test the pickup coil, connect one lead of an ohmeter to the base of the distributor and check each lead of the pickup coil, one at a time. You should get an infinite reading.
Connect the leads of your ohmeter to both pickup coil leads and you should get a reading of between 500 and 1500 ohms. Your reading should not fluctuate.
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Great info thanks. This is where being colour blind is no use. I am reliably informed that the pick up coil to ICM wires are white (more enjun heat yellow now) and green. I think the green going to the "P" terminal and white to the 'N"?
Great trick on twisting the wires and heat shrink. Thank you.
Will hopefully have time for another look at ignition tomorrow.
I think my U shaped piece of metal is from within the rotor body... To hold the rotor right to the shaft! Or at least part of it. It doesn't seem to fit there well but that's the only place that makes sense.
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The green wire goes to the "P" terminal on the ICM, closest to centre of dist.
The white (yellowed by heat/age) wire goes to the "N"
The weird foreign body bit sat loose in the dist I think must have been from the rotor cap shaft hole.... It doesn't fit in there well at all but I am sure there is normally a strip of metal in there but just so the cap is a good fit. That can't be helping things.
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Not very glamorous but the arrival of Larry the Bampton rat allowed me an easy check for spark. ... No spark.
The foreign body was part of the rotor cap.
ICM replaced, no starty.
May get a chance to have another go tomorrow.
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I know you are all of having fun but when you return....
Ignition coil is out and I will test that and report back. I see some rivet removal is required to fit a new one. Todd sent me a new one a while ago, in the box are the bits needed to replace the rivets but also some long shiny brackets....I guess these are for some non Fiero application?
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Yes, that coil is multiple vehicle. Usually comes with bolts and nuts to replace the rivets.
The fun has started. We have 3 on site at 3:30
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The old coil passes the 3 resistance tests specified in Haynes. Think I will change anyway... I think you are going to have more fun today than me.
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The test procedure I described is for the pickup coil in the distributor. Did you test it?
Our fun starts in about an hour.
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I forgot to take a multimeter down with me today so couldn't check the pick up coil. My hopes are pinned on this.
The ignition coil can be crossed off the list. Old and new both test fine and neither helps no starty. It did give me the chance to clean and paint the bracket though.
I also checked and cleaned the rear plugs and distributor connections.
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To test the pickup coil, connect one lead of an ohmeter to the base of the distributor and check each lead of the pickup coil, one at a time. You should get an infinite reading.
Connect the leads of your ohmeter to both pickup coil leads and you should get a reading of between 500 and 1500 ohms. Your reading should not fluctuate.
Yesterday I set up everything ready for multimeter and today managed to get 5 mins to test..
First bit pass
Second bit. FAIL. I get infinite.
Will double check readings when I get time.
I have a complete dist ready to go, so will prolly change the entire unit and then rebuild t'other at my leisure when I can source an individual pick up coil.
Thanks for the help thus far.
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Any progress?
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I would strongly suspect your pickup coil. I've had 3 ignition failures that stranded me. The first one was the ICM. The other two were the pickup coil. I replace my pickup coil now every time I replace spark plugs... every 30K miles.
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Thanks guys.
I am certain it's the pick up coil as it fails based on FFs tests.
No more progress other than preparation for dist removal. Have put some penetrating oil around the clamp and base. Marked the rotor position. Labelled all the plugs/cap. Taken some pics.
Will hopefully get time on Sunday to swap dists over. Can't find my timing light.
Does anyone have a recommendation for pick up coil brand/part number? I will need one to rebuild the old dist at some point.
I also may have a water leak from the pump. Prolly from all that nothing the car has done for a few years... But that's for another thread once it's running.
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One way I've swapped distributors and avoided the need for a timing light is to align the pickup points on the distributor. If you have an original distributor with the upright thingies, I bring the rotor around toward the #1 plug and align the pickup points perfectly. I then mark the pickup point and the position of the rotor with a magic marker. When I set the new distributor in, I set it up to match the old one. It works the same way with the newer star type pickup points.
Aligning the pickup points is very easy on a manual trans car. The ignition coil lead can be pulled and the starter bumped to bring th rotor around toward the #1 position. The car should be on a level surface, as you are inside your building. I then place the trans in 3rd or 4th gear and gently nudge the car forward until the points align. If you go past an alignment point, back up well past it then try again. The engine should always be going in the direction of rotation to take up cam chain slack.
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Ahhhh thanks. I have upright thingies, that sounds like a great plan, thank you.
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Dist out. I was prepared for a battle but it came out with no issues.
The ICM on the new dist had the lightest whiff of heat sink goo on it so I will get some more of that before fitment. Also the new ICM has Phillips head bolts rather than the hex head. If I don't change then now, I can see me cursing myself by the side of the road trying to remove. Since these are also earthing the unit... I will try and find new ones with hex head rather than doing the old hex heads.
I wanted to ask if you think it would be a good idea to swap the ICM that came with my new dist a MOBILETRON for either the orig GM one or made in Canada E-TRON?
Also want to check the pickup coil in New dist just to be sure... But yes forgot my multimeter again.
Since lack of parts/multimeter have stopped me for the day I fixed an intermittent headlight problem by replacing the isolation relay which again the Todd guy very kindly sent me in a box of goodies!!
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While you're doing this, you might as well get the new ICM tested.
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It probably doesn't matter which ICM you use as long as you carry a spare with you. At a minimum, I would remove the ICM from the new distributor and see what heat sink grease it has underneath. If it's the clear stuff, I'd suggest the grease be removed and replaced with white or silver heat sink grease.
You will probably have a lot of difficulty in finding the correct screws for the ICM. Seems to be an odd thread. Reuse the old hex head screws. Put a small touch of anti-seize on the tip of the threads and only tighten them by holding the tool in your fingertips instead of wrenching down on it with your tool held in your whole hand. Always be sure to carry a 5.5 mm socket with you, too.
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I will look up tests for ICM. Can't recall seeing any in Haynes.
FF, part of my hold up is the need for more paste for new ICM as there is a pathetic amount on it.
We have a Mr Wharton here and if he hasn't got/can't find the correct bolts for ICM then I have no chance.
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ICM's can be tested at the parts store. They should put a load on it at least 3 times. This heats up the circuitry. A one-load test will likely show it to be good.
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I don't think our parts places are like yours. No loan tools or testing available.
If anyone needs to know... And to remind myself, the ICM bolts are 6-40 UNF x 3/4" set screws. Very close to a 3.5mm thread.
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Hmmm. In general, the loaner and testing tools are a good idea.
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FIERO WORKY!!
New dist fitted and it fired straight up. After searching for the correct UNF bolts for ICM.... The new dist had a different thread size arghhhh.
Now I know it goes, I will fit the new dist cap and maybe leads. And check front plugs.... And change fuel filter...and.. Set the timing as timing light located. Also checked the tyre date code and it would seem they are 18 years old!
At some point I will start a new thread about the water leak... But for now THANK YOU for the help and advice.
Cheers
PK
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8) ;D
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Glad it's working.
Is it possible that the original bolts were the wrong size, and now they're correct? Since they weren't the correct size, I wonder...
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The old UNF bolts fit in the original dist ICM holes fine but not the new dist. I guess they changed the spec as difficult to source the UNF!
I will take the new bolts out and measure/replace as they are Phillips rather than hex head
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The original screws were made of aluminum. If the new Phillips head screws are metal, that may be beneficial. It's not uncommon to drop those screws onto the engine. In the case of the 85-87, the crossover pipe and related heat shields make it near impossible to remove because the screw must be accessed with the fingers or a grabber claw. A pickup magnet tool can aid in the recovery of steel screws. Using a magnetized screwdriver while removing a steel screw will reduce the possibility of dropping it.
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PK, haven't seen you on for a bit.
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...annnnd...Fiero no worky!!!
Been very busy but was determined to at least get it on the road. It has done 1 visit for MOT test and 3 local pootles and has decided to retire itself for the year!
On the last local pootle it started fine on initial start and died after 5 seconds....hmmm. It then fired up fine and ran perfectly. I purposely stopped/started it 20 odd times but couldn't recreate the problem.
Today it did the same thing and then no restarty. I did hear the fuel pump but for a very short duration.
It is def a fuel problem, no pressure whatsoever at shraeder valve am hoping not pump due to the pain of obtaining the bits.
Any suggestions as to best diagnosis procedure would be gratefully received. No error codes are recorded. I need to check the SES light comes on with ignition. I guess after that relay check somehow and think there is an ALDL check for pump?
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The ALDL fuel pump test is in the August newsletter.
Do you hear the fuel pump?
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I don't remember if there's a fuse for the fuel pump, but check all fuses. Place your fingers on the two relays located behind the air filter canister. Have an assistant turn the ignition to ON and determine if you feel one of the relays click. You should also be able to hear it.
To test the fuel pump, apply power to the single ALDL terminal at the top, driver's side of the ALDL. You can jumper from the lighter receptacle if you remove it and use the hot lead. If the pump runs, you have a blockage in the fuel delivery system. Check the two Injector fuses. Inj 1 and Inj 2.
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If the fuel pump runs, the issue could be the pulsator...or whatever someone may have put in place of the pulsator. Or, it could be the fuel pickup.
If there is a blockage, the fuel pump will rapidly die.
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Thanks chaps. I did get a chance to quickly confirm that SES light comes on with ignition.
Next step fuses but not sure when I will get a chance but will report back.
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Fuse #2 fuel pump relay etc is fine. Changed for good measure.
I don't have anyone here but can hear relay click with ignition.
Next test. ALDL power up pump.
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Luckily had glamorous assistant this morning. The audible click I could hear wasn't the fuel pump relay.
With said glamorous assistant I could feel the left relay click when ign switched ..BUT not every time ign switched. And no fuel pump noise. Thanks for info on touching both relays FF..I found diagram saying it's the right relay...it was the left one.
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Paperclipped terminals A&G on ALDL ... pump doesn't run.
The fuel pump relay was coming out of its plastic housing...I thought I might be in to something but swapped relays over (pump&AC) and this made no difference.
I would like to replace this relay anyway.... So here starts the shopping list!
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What was the audible click, if not the relay?
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Try from the ciggarette lighter to terminal G, as Fierofool suggested. A is ground, and I had thought that was correct, but that does not make sense to me, right now.
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Click sounded like summat to do with auto cruise bellow thingy but not sure
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16ohms atwix tan/white wire at relay plug and earth
ALDL=ALCL
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Connector D and earth on relay plug gave me 51.22, 43.76, 32.44 ....... Volts.... hmmmmm.
Tried at fuse box with head wedged in footwell....more jibber jabber.
I then got bored of random readings and a general sense of uncomfortableness from the contortions and removed fuse box from its holder...ahh that's better. With my head the right way up and access to the back of the board, I could see one of the fuse pump terminals was loose in the box (is not attached to the plastic). I reattached and tried ignition...still nothing...oh yeah best put relay back in ...and....whirrrrrr. the fuel pump is back. Wooohoooo.
Didn't have time to check if it runs but am sure that's at least diagnosis done.
Now to find a way of holding the terminal in the fuse box. Else every time that fuse is removed it will not be possible to reconnect without removing the fusebox.
Thanks for suggestions.
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JB Weld, if you have it available in the UK. But really, there should be a tang that holds it in place. Maybe pull it out the back and spread it slightly.
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Good plan FF. JB not so easy to find but plenty of equivalents like "gorilla weld".
Ahh yes, seems there is a security tang, mayhaps that needs tweaking rather than damage to the fuse box plastic.
Hoping for some time tomorrow to get everything back together!
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Something to consider. The tang may have pulled plastic from the area where it's supposed to latch. Try rotating the terminal 180 degrees and see if it will hold. Springing it open might cause a poor connection between the terminal and the fuse terminal. That could generate a lot of heat due to resistance. That was a problem we had on a Honda Civic we once owned. The heat generated would melt the fuse element, but before the fuse would blow, it was melting the plastic of the fuse block.
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That's a perfect description of what has happened FF.
I plan on squeezing the terminal by the fuse blades to make sure there is a good connection. Then will open up the security bit to try and seat it back in the plastic housing. If that fails I will epoxy it in place.
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To conclude....FIERO WORKY (again).
The security tabs on the loose fuse box wire were non existent so I bent out some new ones and it seated nicely.
The relay needed returning to its housing. I found a new air filter, so that went in while that area was in bits.
Unfortunately that's about all the spare time I have this year so Dangermouse will probably go into hibernation until next year.
Ta again for help.
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Just be aware that cars tend to develop issues while hibernating.
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Luckily not as many as cars that are used on our salt covered winter roads.
Dangermouse now nicely tucked in its humidity controlled palace. :0)
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...Dangermouse needed to be removed from humidity controlled palace for first time since last post. So palace could be ermmm carpeted! Spoilt or what! Even has underlay.
And click...vroom, started straight up!
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Awesome!
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Are you putting a gasoline stabilizer in the tank before storage and letting it run for a while to be sure it gets into the injectors?
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No FF.
I normally just oil change and fill with Esso superunleaded (the only fuel left here that specifies zero ethanol) and that's it.
Do the same thing with cars and boikes over winter storage and have not had any problems...so far.