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Author Topic: F-Body 3.4 Swap into a 2.8 Fiero  (Read 41243 times)

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Fierofool

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F-Body 3.4 Swap into a 2.8 Fiero
« on: May 08, 2015, 08:12:02 pm »
At one time i had gotten permission to paste a link to this very good How-To article.  Due to Message Board changes, it has disappeared.  Here it is, again.

http://fiero34swap.eleventenths.org/
There are three kinds of men:

1.    The ones that learn by reading.
2.    The few who learn by observation.
3.    The rest of them have to pee on the electric fence and find out for themselves.    Will Rogers

Fierofool

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Re: F-Body 3.4 Swap into a 2.8 Fiero
« Reply #1 on: May 08, 2015, 10:15:53 pm »
If you're installing a 3.4 into an 87 or 88, here are the gaskets you'll need.  Updated 03/14/2020 for flywheel information.

The oil pan gasket set is if you're using an 87 or 88 timing cover and 3.4 oil pan. Otherwise order OS 30512 C which is the listing for the 85 engine. The reason I recommend asking for the 85 pan gasket set is because some of the listings are incorrect due to 86 being a crossover year on some parts.

These are all FelPro gasket sets.

TCS 45828 Timing Cover Set Includes Water Pump Gasket.
MS 93045 Exhaust Manifold Gasket Set.
VS 50077 R Valve Cover Set--Cork Valve Cover Gaskets Also Come In The Intake Manifold Set, But Aren't Used On The Fiero.
MS 93020 Intake Manifold Set, Includes Lower, Intermediate, and Upper Gaskets.
OS 34501 R Oil Pan Set
BS 40626 Rear Main Bearing Seal. Always replace this seal when you have the opportunity.

Get a 91 Beretta GT 3.1 V6 at Advance Auto Parts if you don't have an 88 flywheel.  The 88 Fiero and Beretta flywheels are identical.

Carquest Part # 50-6500   Casting # 14018712
LUK  Part # I1000847944LUK
Sachs Part # I1000202427SAC


There is no need to purchase head gaskets unless you plan to remove the heads from the 3.4 engine. There's no real need to remove them unless you have them rebuilt.

So that you don't have to readjust the valves, before removing the lower intake on the engine, acquire a pushrod removal tool made by Lisle Tools. Part # 48500
http://www.lislecorp.com/di...roducts/?product=298

If the 3.4 heads are left on the engine, you will need to remove the pipe plug in the rear of the passenger side head so that the Fiero temperature gauge sending unit can be installed.  Remove the sender from the left front of the 3.4 head and use a good pipe compound when installing a pipe plug in it's place.  You don't want it to leak after the engine's installed. 

I also recommend installing a set of rebuilt injectors. BMW Fuel Injector (M3) - The four pintle design atomizes fuel much more efficiently with a much better spray pattern.  Use 0280150415 for flow reference.  These are flow rated at 17 lb/hr at 43.5 psi stock Fiero fuel pressure.  Or, you can have your stock Fiero injectors recalibrated for 17 # per hour, which is what's required for the 3.4

This information edited in on June 22, 2018
This is what I found regarding Bosch Fuel Injectors # 0280150415. This comes from Injector Planet's website.

This is a modified pintle injector with a 4-hole nozzle. There is a pintle behind each nozzle hole. This creates a much better spray pattern for better atomization.

Bosch EV1 Fuel Injector
Jetronic port / 4 hole nozzle

Flow rates @ 43.5 psi / 3 bar
16.76 lb per hour (My Note: 17# rated injectors flow at approximately 16.666 lb/hr at 3 bar or 43.5 psi. See calculator chart below)
126.5 G per min. (N-Heptane)
176.1 cc per min

15.90 Ohm resistance
Regarding flow rates listed above, I've consulted 4 or 5 various charts for Bosch injectors and the EV1 injectors are rated by the various charts at anywhere from 14.1 lb/hr to 22 lb/hr.  I strongly suggest you have them flow-tested if you purchase them. 

Bosch Part # 0280150415
BMW part # 13641730060
EDIT: Due to the problems some are having with the 0280150415 EV1 injectors, I am suggesting that you consider the 0280150941 Bosch injectors, instead. They have worked well for me for 50,000 miles, but the moment I upgraded to the EV1 injectors, I experienced all kinds of problems.  About 3 of 10 have had problems with the EV1 injectors that couldn't be resolved.  Any future reference in this article suggesting using the 0280150415 EV1 injectors is hereby retracted.
I had time to do a little searching today and this is what I found for top feed Bosch injectors.

0280150415 injectors 16# = 16.76#/hr @ 3 bar (43.5 psi) compares on InjectorPlanet and InjectorRx websites.
0280150715 injectors 15# = 15.4#/hr @ 3 bar
0280150778 injectors 17# = 18.2#/hr @ 3 bar

The 0280150941 (Ford FOSE-B5A) injectors I switched back to are rated 14#/hr at 3 bar according to the InjectorRx chart and InjectorPlanet chart. They were recommended and provided by Fuel Injector Connection. That actual flow is 14.1#/hr


CHART FROM MOTOR MAN FUEL INJECTOR SUPPLY

Fuel Injector Size Calculator
Horsepower (at the flywheel) 160
Number of Injectors 6
B.S.F.C. *

Max Duty Cycle in % 80


Required Injector Static Flow Rate @ 43.5 psi lb/hr 16.666

cc/min

NEW Bosch "green tip" injector. The green tip indicates a 17 lb injector needed for the 3.4. This series injector has apparently been replaced by the above-recommended injector.  I can't find them on their current website.  You can get them from Fuel Injector Connection at http://fuelinjectorconnection.com/shop/  These work well with the stock Fiero ECM.

I've tried the Mustang 302 injectors and the stock injectors that came in the 3.4 and had problems with both. Others might recommend Accel or other brands. I can't say they're good or bad since I have no experience with those. 

You can use your original harmonic balancer but if you use the 3.4 balancers, you will need to have a machine shop cut new timing marks to match the position of the 2.8 balancer marks.  If you use the 2.8 balancers to locate the mark on the new balancer, you must be certain that the 2.8 outer ring hasn't slipped.  The timing mark is approximately 7 degrees counterclockwise of the keyway. 

87 and 88 Fiero pans and timing covers can be used, but if your engine is either, use the 3.4 pan to provide clearance for the oil pump.  All Fiero V6 pans will need to have the baffle notched for clearance and the 85 or 86 timing cover will need to be used with the 85 or 86 pans.  If any modification is needed on the 3.4 pan, it's only a slight indentation down the front corner to clear the front motor mount.  If done with a brass drift and hammer, you are unlikely to cause any breaks or cracks. 


« Last Edit: April 16, 2021, 06:06:25 pm by Fierofool »
There are three kinds of men:

1.    The ones that learn by reading.
2.    The few who learn by observation.
3.    The rest of them have to pee on the electric fence and find out for themselves.    Will Rogers

f85gtron

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Re: F-Body 3.4 Swap into a 2.8 Fiero
« Reply #2 on: August 05, 2016, 10:58:21 am »
I've been having problems finding, then installing the oil sender tube adaptor fitting. The 3.4 has a 1/4" npt thread with no provisions for jit bubble flare seal. Once adaptor was found and installed, i couldn't get the multiple connections to seal,.so out of desperation, and hours of searching images on the infronet, I found a solution that is simple and cuts clutter too!

Find a 45° brass fitting female to male and install so that the sender runs parallel to the block, aimed towards the front of the block.

Upgrading to the 88 style sender is a must anyways, so why not protect your investment and move the sender to a spot where it won't get ruined by weather?
« Last Edit: August 05, 2016, 08:57:30 pm by f85gtron »
85 GT manual NOW powered by 7730
3.4 bored to 3.5, cammed out and DIS'd
F23 connecting power to ground
My wife won't ride in it. It's "the other woman" ;)

Raydar

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Re: F-Body 3.4 Swap into a 2.8 Fiero
« Reply #3 on: August 05, 2016, 05:05:11 pm »
...
NEW Bosch "green tip" injector. The green tip indicates a 17 lb injector needed for the 3.4. You can get them from Fuel Injector Connection at http://fuelinjectorconnection.com/shop/  These work well with the stock Fiero ECM.
...

They may call them "17#" injectors, but it must be at some higher fuel pressure than the stock Fiero setup. (I'd be curious to know what fuel pressure the BMWs, that came with these injectors, run.)

I have scanned the fueling of two different 3.4 cars, using these injectors. They both ran lean. The BLM readings were nearly identical to the stock 2.8 15# injectors, as installed in the 3.4.
In both instances the ECM was adding as much fuel as it could, within the limits of the program.

I "band-aided" one of these cars by opening up the window to allow the BLM to go higher, adding more fuel. (I burned a chip for the other car, but the owner said that it "didn't work" when he installed it. I offered to do another one for him but he wasn't interested.)

Both owners described the "excellent fuel mileage" that they were seeing with these injectors and a stock tune. Upper 20s to low 30s.
RIGHT! Because their engines were not getting enough fuel.

This may not be a big deal, right now, but at some point I wouldn't be surprised if some pistons or exhaust valves got damaged, over the long term. Or maybe not. Who knows?
At the expense of a bit of fuel economy, there may even be a few horsepower locked in there, if they ran a little richer.
 
« Last Edit: August 05, 2016, 05:12:33 pm by Raydar »
...

Fierofool

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Re: F-Body 3.4 Swap into a 2.8 Fiero
« Reply #4 on: August 05, 2016, 11:45:52 pm »
It's been so long ago that I don't remember what was wrong with my chip.  I think at some point it went into Limp Home Mode, but I'm not sure.  I think someone said I may have bent one of the pins when I put it in and it lost connection. 

The 17# BMW injectors are rated at 43.5 psi, and actually flow 16.666 lb/hr.  All the injector calculator programs I've seen use a base rate of 43.5 psi, but different pressures can be entered for a specific application. 

For a while, now, my mpg is running in the low 20's and I have a slight rich burn smell.  I can actually get better mpg if I don't go into 5th gear.  Mountain driving in 3rd and 4th seems to be ideal, with mpg moving on to the upper 20's.  That's normal 3rd and 4th, not RFTH 3rd and 4th. 

Running stock chips in a 3.4, it might be worthwhile to have the Fiero's 15# injectors adjusted to flow the higher rate.  Admittedly, my BMW injectors aren't ideal, but I think they are better suited than the Rochester 17# or the stock 15#.  The bold, underlined statement applies to my original injectors that were a little lean.  The newly recommended injectors are inline with the requirements of the engine.  This info has been updated as of April 19, 2020

I looked in the Fiero parts list, and there is no part number for that fitting.  It just describes it as a fitting with NS as a part number.  Meaning it's Not Separate.  It comes with the engine or the sending tube on AC equipped cars.  There was someone on PFF that had identified the needed fitting by name and thread, if you want to use the sending tube.  It's been a couple of years ago, so it'd be in the Archives by now.  Dennis LaGrua or OleJoeDad might be able to help out since they do a lot of swaps. 
« Last Edit: April 19, 2020, 06:25:51 pm by Fierofool »
There are three kinds of men:

1.    The ones that learn by reading.
2.    The few who learn by observation.
3.    The rest of them have to pee on the electric fence and find out for themselves.    Will Rogers

Raydar

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Re: F-Body 3.4 Swap into a 2.8 Fiero
« Reply #5 on: August 06, 2016, 10:52:10 am »
I've been having problems finding, then installing the oil sender tube adaptor fitting.

Check this link. Unless there is something different going on...
http://rodneydickman.com/catalog/product_info.php?cPath=34&products_id=193
...

f85gtron

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Re: F-Body 3.4 Swap into a 2.8 Fiero
« Reply #6 on: August 06, 2016, 01:42:06 pm »
Thanks Raydar, but I found a local source, but the multiple connections bothered me, so I found the solution I posted, in the interest of the KISS principle
85 GT manual NOW powered by 7730
3.4 bored to 3.5, cammed out and DIS'd
F23 connecting power to ground
My wife won't ride in it. It's "the other woman" ;)

Raydar

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Re: F-Body 3.4 Swap into a 2.8 Fiero
« Reply #7 on: August 07, 2016, 06:07:07 pm »
I like the idea, but will that work on an air conditioned Fiero?
It's been a while, but the sender looks like it's right where the compressor wants to be.
...

f85gtron

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Re: F-Body 3.4 Swap into a 2.8 Fiero
« Reply #8 on: August 07, 2016, 07:15:36 pm »
Yup, it works. It runs along the block, in between a couple bosses that our application doesn't use and leaves plenty of space for the compressor and wiring harness that runs through there. However, I'm not sure it would work with the pre-88 sender because of size.
85 GT manual NOW powered by 7730
3.4 bored to 3.5, cammed out and DIS'd
F23 connecting power to ground
My wife won't ride in it. It's "the other woman" ;)

Raydar

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Re: F-Body 3.4 Swap into a 2.8 Fiero
« Reply #9 on: August 15, 2016, 06:42:17 pm »
Nice! Looks like a good idea.
...

GTRS Fiero

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Re: F-Body 3.4 Swap into a 2.8 Fiero
« Reply #10 on: September 18, 2017, 07:19:11 pm »
Find a 45° brass fitting female to male and install so that the sender runs parallel to the block, aimed towards the front of the block.



You don't happen to remember what this fitting was, do you?

Fierofool

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Re: F-Body 3.4 Swap into a 2.8 Fiero
« Reply #11 on: September 18, 2017, 08:52:08 pm »
I believe it's called a field elbow.  That was the name on the lable when I was doing the upgrade at the top to lay the sensor horizontal.
There are three kinds of men:

1.    The ones that learn by reading.
2.    The few who learn by observation.
3.    The rest of them have to pee on the electric fence and find out for themselves.    Will Rogers

GTRS Fiero

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Re: F-Body 3.4 Swap into a 2.8 Fiero
« Reply #12 on: September 18, 2017, 08:55:00 pm »
How do you ensure it's the right size/thread?

Fierofool

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Re: F-Body 3.4 Swap into a 2.8 Fiero
« Reply #13 on: September 18, 2017, 08:59:51 pm »
Mine were 1/4 NPT.  I had a very hard finding them.  Local plumbing supplies  didn't have them.  Got them on Ebay.  Can send you one if you want.  I did find that I had to try all 4 that I bought to gind one that would orient the right direction when it was tight.
There are three kinds of men:

1.    The ones that learn by reading.
2.    The few who learn by observation.
3.    The rest of them have to pee on the electric fence and find out for themselves.    Will Rogers

Fierofool

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Re: F-Body 3.4 Swap into a 2.8 Fiero
« Reply #14 on: September 18, 2017, 09:06:22 pm »
$00.02
There are three kinds of men:

1.    The ones that learn by reading.
2.    The few who learn by observation.
3.    The rest of them have to pee on the electric fence and find out for themselves.    Will Rogers