Who has a 3800? Need a measurement...

[Tha Driver]

Hi everyone,
OK it looks like I'm going to go ahead & put the 3800 in the custom car, since no one seems to want it & I haven't found another engine.
What I would like to know, is how much clearence there is in front of the engine (between engine & firewall & hood hinges, etc.). I'm thinking of mounting it a little more forward than usual to give more room for the exhaust.
Can someone give me measurements?
TIA,
~ Paul
aka "Tha Driver"

I know that you think you understood what you thought I said, but I'm not sure you realize that what I said was not what I was thinking I wanted to say or meant.

[RobsFieros]

It depends on how low in the cradle you get it. We got ours lower than anybody else and we didn't have any clearance problems at all. But then he decide to use the intercooler and that meant we had to remove part of the hinge and the springs. We also installed headers and they were almost up against the firewall. The back of the engine near the trunk has all kinds of room.

[Tha Driver]

Mine is normaly asperated & no headers. I was thinking maybe adding a turbo in the future, & would like a little extra room so I don't have to cut out the bottom of the trunk. How many inches are there between the firewall & the original exhaust manifold?
Also, will I need to re-program the original Buick ECU? If so I may forget this engine anyway. I'm old school (read "old fart") & don't have a clue how to re-program a computer & can't afford to pay someone to do it. I know if I turbo it I'll need to add more fuel somehow... 
Thanks,
~ Paul
aka "Tha Driver"

"The police said he commited suicide: he shot himself in the head - twice!" (real news story)

[RobsFieros]

If you move the engine forward then your axles won't line up, you need to keep them straight into the spindles or you'll be replacing axles at every oil change. The engine will run on the original programming but not like it should. I'm old school too but I've hooked up with some new school tallent that takes care of my wiring and programming. To answer your question, you should have maybe 3" to the heatshield, but thats just a guess since we used headers.

[Tha Driver]

Actually, I think the axles will be fine. Remember they're designed for steering. In fact, they may wear longer if they're not wearing the same spot on the tripods all the time.
How much would you charge to wire & re-program it for me? I have the Buick (it's a '95) ECU & wiring that plugs into the engine. Correct me if I'm wrong, but all that will need to be wired is the ECU to the body, right? How many wires is that?
Thanks for the info,
~ Paul
aka "Tha Driver"

Hey Leroy, what'cha doin' dragging that chain across the floor?
Leroy: "Ever tried pushing a chain?"

[RobsFieros]

I think I'll let you talk to Derek on that, I'll send him your message.

[TopNotch]

The outer joints on a CV axle are meant for steering, but the inner joints are only meant for handling suspension changes as the car goes over bumps, etc. If you moved the engine forward or backward, an angle would be introduced in those joints that they were not meant to have.

[Flyboy81]

Top Notch is correct on the axles.  You will want them to be straight as possible.  The Grand Prix axles are almost perfectly straight when sitting flat on the ground in a GP.  One BIG difference in our 3800 Fiero is a went with massive exhaust.  I used 1 3/4" runners and 3" pipe down to my muffler.  I also had my exhaust man use 14 gauge steel.  This tends to take up ALOT of space.  Our trunk was never cut and, believe me, I wouldnt do a swap with a cut trunk.  I want my car looking BONE stock.  A natural aspirated engine will fit very well into the engine back in a Fiero, GT or otherwise.  You will be shocked at how much easier your routine tune ups and maintanence are.  As far as a turbo goes, youre not gonna have much room once you put a turbo in and run the intercooler and all the plumbing.  Bare in mind, you HAVE to run an intercooler with a turbo.  You can run one in the front or whereever you can make room and have airflow go over it.  You CAN NOT run a turbo without having the PCM tuned on an NA engine.  Those engine were not designed for boosted duty and dont have the parameters in the computer for that kind of fuel and timing tables.   There is alot of debate as to whether you should boost a NA engine because of the fact they have weaker connecting rods.  I have no opinion on this.  All I can say is the rods are different in the NA engine and Ive seen guys running massive turbos on them without trouble, but Ive seen equally as many destroy an engine.  I can have your computer tuned for you for $50.  I can set up a "shelf tune" that will get in on the road and disable all related EVAP codes that will turn on the SES lamp.  It will also allow for a little more than stock power.  Feel free to ask if you have any other questions about this setup or these engines.  Ill do all I can to fix you up! 

[Tha Driver]

Top Notch is correct on the axles.  You will want them to be straight as possible.  The Grand Prix axles are almost perfectly straight when sitting flat on the ground in a GP.  One BIG difference in our 3800 Fiero is a went with massive exhaust.  I used 1 3/4" runners and 3" pipe down to my muffler.  I also had my exhaust man use 14 gauge steel.  This tends to take up ALOT of space.  Our trunk was never cut and, believe me, I wouldnt do a swap with a cut trunk.  I want my car looking BONE stock.  A natural aspirated engine will fit very well into the engine back in a Fiero, GT or otherwise.  You will be shocked at how much easier your routine tune ups and maintanence are.  As far as a turbo goes, youre not gonna have much room once you put a turbo in and run the intercooler and all the plumbing.  Bare in mind, you HAVE to run an intercooler with a turbo.  You can run one in the front or whereever you can make room and have airflow go over it.  You CAN NOT run a turbo without having the PCM tuned on an NA engine.  Those engine were not designed for boosted duty and dont have the parameters in the computer for that kind of fuel and timing tables.   There is alot of debate as to whether you should boost a NA engine because of the fact they have weaker connecting rods.  I have no opinion on this.  All I can say is the rods are different in the NA engine and Ive seen guys running massive turbos on them without trouble, but Ive seen equally as many destroy an engine.  I can have your computer tuned for you for $50.  I can set up a "shelf tune" that will get in on the road and disable all related EVAP codes that will turn on the SES lamp.  It will also allow for a little more than stock power.  Feel free to ask if you have any other questions about this setup or these engines.  Ill do all I can to fix you up! 

I'm thinking on the axles they travel at least 4" (probably 6" or more) up & down with the suspension, so they should handle an inch or two forward. I can always re-make the motor mounts if they don't work out.
If/when I turbo it, I'll only be running probably 8 lbs. of boost max. I don't plan to build it into a race car.
Can you email me your phone #? I'd like you to do the computer when it's time, but I'm more interested in learning more about it. You can email me at ImThaDriver at yahoo.
Thanks,
~ Paul
aka "Tha Driver"

Success is the ability to go from one failure to another with no loss of enthusiasm. - Winston Churchill

[Tha Driver]

More questions:
1) How do I center the engine/trans right-to-left, if I don't have axles?
2) I've always read that you can make the axles using the 4T60e inner tripods & axles, & the Fiero outer CV joints. Not with mine. The CV joints are for a smaller axle (too small to go over the 4T60 axles). Maybe I need automatic Fiero CVs?
I thought this was going to be simple... 
~ Paul
aka "Tha Driver"

People who are lucky should hold out a helping hand for those less fortunate. - Paul Newman

[RobsFieros]

Mount your struts on the cradle. Measure the Fiero axles and position the tranny in the cradle to where everything lines up according to your measurements. If your using the manual tranny you can use the Fiero axles, but if your using the 4T60 tranny you'll have to use the Fiero insides in the 4T60 inboard joint housing and the outboard joints will have to be Fiero joints. I think. We used a 4T65E-HD tranny.

You have to use manual Fiero axles and they have to be factory axles. The new replacement axles are a different size and won't fit inside the 4T60 housing.

[Tha Driver]

Mount your struts on the cradle. Measure the Fiero axles and position the tranny in the cradle to where everything lines up according to your measurements. If your using the manual tranny you can use the Fiero axles, but if your using the 4T60 tranny you'll have to use the Fiero insides in the 4T60 inboard joint housing and the outboard joints will have to be Fiero joints. I think. We used a 4T65E-HD tranny.

You have to use manual Fiero axles and they have to be factory axles. The new replacement axles are a different size and won't fit inside the 4T60 housing.

I can't measure or use the Fiero axles - they are too long. Any other suggestions?
~ Paul
aka "Tha Driver"

If God has a plan, it's backfired!

[RobsFieros]

4T60-E and 4T65-E (non-HD) Electronic Automatic Overdrive Transmissions

Driver's Side:

[Tha Driver]

Thanks Rob,
Now I have to come up with more money to buy parts, & start searching junkyards for the right side shaft.
I also need 3 inner sleeves from the '88 forward link bushings. Just the metal sleeves. Have any of those?
~ Paul
aka "Tha Driver"

Any society that would give up a little liberty to gain a little security will deserve neither and lose both. - Benjamin Franklin

[RobsFieros]

I probably do...we burnt out Derek's when we installed the new ones. Do you know the measurements on the sleeves. I kept the old sleeves to use as spacers.