Starting Problem

[HarryT]

Hi All;
My 87 GT with 2.8 & Stick, ("Our Little Black Car") left us stranded for the first time in 30 years. 10 us and 20 my brother.
Long story ...  About 6 months ago when I went to start it after it had sat in the barn for a few weeks, it didn't start.  The engine spun but no go.  I pulled the distributor cap off and what a mess.  Rust everywhere and the cap and rotor where beyond cleaning.  I cleaned the rust with a scraper and a small wire brush as best I could with the distributor still in the car.  I installed a new rotor and cap, charged the battery  and it started.  The next day we went for a spirited drive in the mountains and it ran well.  We pulled into a scenic view.  I shut her off and took pictures.  When we were ready to leave it spun but did not start.  I let it sit for a few minutes and it started and ran fine all the way home.
Every couple of weeks I start it and it let it run for a while.  Yesterday I started it and it fired right up.  Today I went to get it out of the barn to go for a drive.  It spun but did not catch.  I waited a few minutes and it started up and we headed for the mountains.  After about a half hour it cut out a couple of times at about 50 MPH and then quit.  I pulled over and it would not start.  I opened the hood and checked for loose connections and all looked well.  I pulled the two plugs off the coil, they looked good.  I plugged them back in.  The car started right up, but I headed for home just to be safe.  About a half hour into our way home, it cut out a couple of times then quit.  It would not start but I did not have a flashlight and it was pitch black.  I tried it every 10 minutes or so for about an hour and gave up and called a neighbor to take us home.  I went back in about an hour to move it back closer to a building for safety reasons fpr the night.  It still would not start so there she sits.
It has the original distributor module so I will go over in the morning and pull the cap and pull the plug off the module and put them back on as I have seen suggested here before.
Charlie or whoever might have a suggestion let me know who to buy a module from.  We have an Advance, Auto Zone and Carquest fairly close, and a NAPA and Orielly  in Seneca.
If that does not solve the problem what other suggestions do you have?
HarryT 

[f85gtron]

Hi Harry,
The several items that could cause these symptoms are:
1) icm failure (heat soak)
2) pickup coil failure (coil wire breaks)
3) coil failure (either primary or secondary open or short)
4) tach filter failure (circuit short to ground)
5) fuel pump failure
6) ecm failure (usually loose bat conn.)

You didn't describe any loss of power popping, so I'm leaning towards 1-4. #6 is unlikely, but check anyways because you mentioned spirited driving. The bat may have shifted or the posts may have backed off.
Hope this helps!
Ron

[Fierofool]

The inside of the distributor can look really horrible but still work just fine.  The rust is caused by the ozone that's created from the spark between the rotor button tip and the wire terminals inside the cap. 

I've lost a few ICM's over the years.  The first one on the 87 was when I bought it and was driving home from Hickory, NC.  It slowly began with a little misfire and by the time I got home, it was getting worse, especially when accelerating.  I've also had quite a few ICM's die, but after having been replaced and laid in the trunk for a while, they would work again. 

They can seem to be working fine.  Stop for a moment, come back out of the store and it won't start.  I've only had one fail while the car was running and I was sitting in traffic at the time. 

Ray had similar symptoms on his 86.  I replaced his ICM.  Still had the problem.  I then replaced the pickup coil without result.  Turned out to be the ignition coil. 

Afterthought:  When you replace the ICM, don't use that clear heat sink grease that usually comes with the module.  Some parts stores carry small tubes of white or silver heat sink grease and most all electronic stores have it.  In order of superiority, it's clear, white, then silver as the best. 

[TopNotch]

Another possible cause of the symptoms -- bad connections on the ICM and/or spark coil. Remove all the low voltage connectors, spray with WD-40, and replace. This will clean the contacts.

[HarryT]

ICM?  Is that the module in the distributor.  What does ICM mean?  Ignition coil module??  My 87 factory service manual just calls it a module.
TopNotch, your message came in as I was typing.  That is what I was going to do today to see if that works.
Everyone else, I will let you know what I find later.
Thanks;
Harry

[Fierofool]

ICM is Ignition Control Module.  Its in the distributor.  Commonly called Module.

You can have it tested at the parts store.  They must put a load on it at least 3 times to heat it enough to see if it's breaking down.  Most know this.  Some don't.

[f85gtron]

Harry,
Please post the solution to the problem when found, along with any diagnostic technique pioneered to solve it. (What size hammer, how hard did you hit it, what kind French did you invent whilst coaxing it out of hiding).  Inquiring minds want to know!
Ron

[HarryT]

I got a call this morning from the guy (Scrooge) that owned the parking lot I had pulled the car into, hollering at me that if I didn't move the car within an hour he  was going to have it towed.  I told him I was 78 and the car was 30 and asked if he could cut me a little slack but he said get it out of here.   I went over to it and tried to start it but it turned over but still would not start so I had to call a tow truck.  I was so upset with the circumstances that I had them tow it to the local shop and will let them fix it.
I will let you all know what they find.
Thanks again;
Harry

[Roger]

Let us know who the scrooge is (his business) and we'll be sure to not patronize it.

[HarryT]

That's  the kicker here.  There is no business, just an old building on a big paved parking lot with no signs of any kind.  I guess he does not want to give anyone free parking.  If I ever see him I will suggest he puts up a parking meter.
Harry

[HarryT]

I finally got The Little Black Car back.  They called on Tuesday evening and said it ready but I was at work and they were closing.  I could not go on Wed. as Karin was having surgery and I had to be there so I said I would pick it up Thursday.  They had to replace the distributor. It was a mess internally and the shaft had a bad spot and was binding.  It came with a rotor. cap and ICM.  They also found it had bad grounds, a vacuum leak and the battery was going bad.  When I went to pick it up it started right up and ran great for a few seconds, then quit. They tried for about an hour to get it running checking all kinds of things.  They ran the battery down and put a charger on it and still could not get it started.  They finally figured out it was out of gas.  It had about 1/4 tank when they received it but they said they ran it about an hour after they fixed it to charge the battery and again this morning for 15 or 20 minutes to make sure it was OK for me to pick up.  When I started it I must have ran it dry.  They put gas in it and I took it for a run and all was OK except the AC was cycling so it must be low on Freon.  It is still the 12 sysetm.  They still had some 12 but didn't have time to fill it.   I paid the bill and when I went to leave the battery was dead, so I had them put in a new one.  When I got home I found the power windows would not even try to move so I called them and will take it back it I can't find the problem.  I am assuming fuse or ground.  I have been planning on putting a large ground cable on for a better ground.  I will do that first and see if it helps.
Harry

[GTRS Fiero]

Harry, just FYI, when a car runs out of fuel, it's bad for the fuel pump.  The fuel pump may or may not die in short order, but it's something to keep in mind, so that you aren't stranded, later on.

[HarryT]

I am going to change the fuel filter as whatever is in the bottom of the 30 year old tank probably got stirred up.  I will also keep my ear on the fuel pump.
Harry

[Fierofool]

The fuel pump pickup doesn't go all the way to the bottom of the tank.  There's a plastic baffle system in there that is about 2 inches off the bottom of the tank.  The pump intake sits on or above that baffle tray.  It doesn't pick up any more sediment when the fuel is low than when it's high.  The biggest problem with running out of fuel is that the pump overheats due to lack of the cooling effect of the fuel in and around it. 

[HarryT]

Thanks all for the answers and suggestions.  I started checking today to see why my windows and engine hatch were not opening.  I got out my trusty 87 factory manual to find which fuse was for the windows.  It was a 30 amp. bi metal circuit breaker style fuse.  The bi metal strip had broken loose from its post.  I had a couple of extras that I took out of my 85 that I gave up on turning into a buggy.  I now have power windows again.  After checking grounds on my engine hatch I again looked in my factory manual and found that the E brake has to be pulled in order for it to work.  That explains why sometimes when I pushed the switch it worked and other times it didn't.  Who would have guessed.  Now everything is working again.
I will put new rubber on it and take it back up into the mountains again where me and it are the happiest.
Harry
PS  If anybody needs parts I am stripping down the 85 with the bored to 3.1 engine with roller cam and headers then send it to the local wrecking yard.