Home
About Us
Calendar
Fiero Documents
Merchandise
Tips
Links
Members
Message Board
Other Fiero Clubs
VIN Decoder
Speed Calculator
GFC Facebook Page
 

Author Topic: Scott's 4.9 Formula  (Read 5452 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

scottb

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1,519
    • View Profile
Re: Scott's 4.9 Formula
« Reply #45 on: October 10, 2021, 11:07:03 am »
It might be a ground issue, Roger and I were thinking that.  Used my jumper cables to go from the engine straight to the battery didn't change anything.

Fierofool

  • Global Moderator
  • *****
  • Posts: 10,598
    • View Profile
    • Georgia Fiero Club
Re: Scott's 4.9 Formula
« Reply #46 on: October 17, 2021, 08:48:17 pm »
Update October 17.

Work has ceased on finding the problem with Scott's 4.9.  A little condensed review.

When he bought the car, it was randomly missing on 4 cylinders.  No particular thing could be identified as the cause.  No bumps in the road, no acceleration or deceleration, no turns.  It would just do it, then it would begin running on all 8 again.  For a while.  Sometimes a short while, sometimes a long while.

Scott, Roger, Raydar, TopNotch, and maybe some others I'm not aware of delved into the car.  Every sensor on the engine was replaced to no avail.  The distributor was replaced to no avail.  One day while still troubleshooting, just by sheer accident, it was found that a fuse block that held among others, two fuses for the fuel injectors had a faulty set of contacts on one of the injector fuses.  Move it one way and it would run on all 8.  Move it the other way and it would only run on 4.

That problem was resolved by replacing and repinning a new fuse block.  But with that problem being solved, another had reared its ugly head.  It ran horribly.  With lots of input from club members and Pennocks members, just about every theory was explored.  ECM.  PROM.  Grounds.  Timing.  Timing.  Timing again. 

The engine would run smoothly with the ALDL jumper in place but would either die or run very roughly as soon as it was removed.  So, diagnostics was frequently interrupted to remove the battery, go underneath and replace the serpentine belt when the engine would buck.  It was finally determined that the cause of the belt jumping was due to a poorly made idler/tensioner bracket.  Several configurations were looked at and considered until finally one was fabricated and that issue was solved.

It was scanned and rescanned.  It was analyzed with oscilloscopes.  Nothing showed up.  Again, timing was looked at.  Troubleshooter noted something that he felt was a little odd about the distributor and the cam sensor inside the distributor because when the trigger tab on the bottom of the rotor button plate passed through the sensor, the rotor button wasn't pointing at the #1 wire terminal.  He wanted to dissect the old distributor to see just how it worked on this particular engine, but that distributor had been discarded long ago when the new one was installed. 

Assuming the spark was breaking down, the ignition coil was replaced with a new one.  No change.  The cam sensor was replaced with a used one that was in the trunk of the car.  No change.  Both the coil and cam sensor that was removed were put back into the new distributor. 

Yesterday, after attending a local car show, I went to Pull A Part and yanked a distributor from a 93 Deville and delivered it to Troubleshooter so he could analyze it.  So, instead of tearing it apart, he swapped it out, pulling the new distributor and putting in the one from the parts yard.  Set it according to the factory service manual and fired it up.  It ran smoothly with the jumper.  It ran smoothly without the jumper. 

It could possibly pull a wheelie on the road if the clutch didn't slip.  But we kept to the speed limit as we delivered it back to Scott this afternoon.  Having replaced the coil and the cam sensor without result, the only thing in the distributor left is the pickup coil and the ICM.  One of those was defective right out of the box. 

Final diagnosis:  Defective Distributor Components.

Thanks to all who contributed to the effort to prevent Scott from utilizing his 45 and propane torch.  The tensioner bracket was fabricated by Headhunter1ID, Gabe Anderson. 

I would also like to introduce and give a HUGE THANKS to Troubleshooter, better known to all of us as Georgia Fiero's TopNotch, aka Pat Swayne. 
There are three kinds of men:

1.    The ones that learn by reading.
2.    The few who learn by observation.
3.    The rest of them have to pee on the electric fence and find out for themselves.    Will Rogers

Raydar

  • Paid Members
  • *****
  • Posts: 2,971
    • View Profile
Re: Scott's 4.9 Formula
« Reply #47 on: October 17, 2021, 09:08:40 pm »
Good. I'm happy that Scott didn't have to provide any additional 9mm ventilation.
« Last Edit: October 17, 2021, 09:13:34 pm by Raydar »
...

TopNotch

  • The Duke of URL
  • Global Moderator
  • *****
  • Posts: 3,979
    • View Profile
Re: Scott's 4.9 Formula
« Reply #48 on: October 17, 2021, 10:09:43 pm »
When I got the pull-a-part distributor from Fierofool, I took the cap off, and it looked very clean inside, and all the components looked like top quality stuff. So I cleaned the outside, replaced the O-ring (the old one was flattened and brittle), and put it in the car, with Scott's new cap on it.
The more complex the mind, the greater the need for the simplicity of play.

PK

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 482
    • View Profile
Re: Scott's 4.9 Formula
« Reply #49 on: October 18, 2021, 12:40:29 am »
What a fantastic effort by all involved and beautifully summarised!  Well done chaps.

pgackerman

  • Paid Members
  • *****
  • Posts: 1,558
    • View Profile
Re: Scott's 4.9 Formula
« Reply #50 on: October 18, 2021, 08:01:41 am »
Impressive.  Great summary.
Red '88 GT 5-Speed, 7730ECM, 1.6 Rockers, and KEYLESS Entry! 
Now with a trailer hitch for my bike rack.
Southland Jubilee 2019 Best in Class

scottb

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1,519
    • View Profile
Re: Scott's 4.9 Formula
« Reply #51 on: October 18, 2021, 06:57:47 pm »
Im at a loss for words........ I was pulling my hair out and about to crush the car when Charlie stole it, said it was going to be fixed.......... I dont know how to thank everyone that was involved, almost the entire club helped with it, and a lot of folks on PFF. No Charlie, you cant have the torch or the 1911, but I promise I wont use them on this car.

Now that it runs correctly the next project will be the clutch. I may not have the availability until next year, we will see how it goes.

Again, thank you to everyone who has been helping with this car.

NoMad

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 528
    • View Profile
Re: Scott's 4.9 Formula
« Reply #52 on: October 18, 2021, 11:32:33 pm »
Great news and well done all!

AJ_87Fiero

  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 166
    • View Profile
Re: Scott's 4.9 Formula
« Reply #53 on: October 19, 2021, 03:11:59 pm »
Update October 17.

Work has ceased on finding the problem with Scott's 4.9.  A little condensed review.

When he bought the car, it was randomly missing on 4 cylinders.  No particular thing could be identified as the cause.  No bumps in the road, no acceleration or deceleration, no turns.  It would just do it, then it would begin running on all 8 again.  For a while.  Sometimes a short while, sometimes a long while.

Scott, Roger, Raydar, TopNotch, and maybe some others I'm not aware of delved into the car.  Every sensor on the engine was replaced to no avail.  The distributor was replaced to no avail.  One day while still troubleshooting, just by sheer accident, it was found that a fuse block that held among others, two fuses for the fuel injectors had a faulty set of contacts on one of the injector fuses.  Move it one way and it would run on all 8.  Move it the other way and it would only run on 4.

That problem was resolved by replacing and repinning a new fuse block.  But with that problem being solved, another had reared its ugly head.  It ran horribly.  With lots of input from club members and Pennocks members, just about every theory was explored.  ECM.  PROM.  Grounds.  Timing.  Timing.  Timing again. 

The engine would run smoothly with the ALDL jumper in place but would either die or run very roughly as soon as it was removed.  So, diagnostics was frequently interrupted to remove the battery, go underneath and replace the serpentine belt when the engine would buck.  It was finally determined that the cause of the belt jumping was due to a poorly made idler/tensioner bracket.  Several configurations were looked at and considered until finally one was fabricated and that issue was solved.

It was scanned and rescanned.  It was analyzed with oscilloscopes.  Nothing showed up.  Again, timing was looked at.  Troubleshooter noted something that he felt was a little odd about the distributor and the cam sensor inside the distributor because when the trigger tab on the bottom of the rotor button plate passed through the sensor, the rotor button wasn't pointing at the #1 wire terminal.  He wanted to dissect the old distributor to see just how it worked on this particular engine, but that distributor had been discarded long ago when the new one was installed. 

Assuming the spark was breaking down, the ignition coil was replaced with a new one.  No change.  The cam sensor was replaced with a used one that was in the trunk of the car.  No change.  Both the coil and cam sensor that was removed were put back into the new distributor. 

Yesterday, after attending a local car show, I went to Pull A Part and yanked a distributor from a 93 Deville and delivered it to Troubleshooter so he could analyze it.  So, instead of tearing it apart, he swapped it out, pulling the new distributor and putting in the one from the parts yard.  Set it according to the factory service manual and fired it up.  It ran smoothly with the jumper.  It ran smoothly without the jumper. 

It could possibly pull a wheelie on the road if the clutch didn't slip.  But we kept to the speed limit as we delivered it back to Scott this afternoon.  Having replaced the coil and the cam sensor without result, the only thing in the distributor left is the pickup coil and the ICM.  One of those was defective right out of the box. 

Final diagnosis:  Defective Distributor Components.

Thanks to all who contributed to the effort to prevent Scott from utilizing his 45 and propane torch.  The tensioner bracket was fabricated by Headhunter1ID, Gabe Anderson. 

I would also like to introduce and give a HUGE THANKS to Troubleshooter, better known to all of us as Georgia Fiero's TopNotch, aka Pat Swayne.
WOW! Inspirational :)
87 Fiero Coupe

AJ_87Fiero

  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 166
    • View Profile
Re: Scott's 4.9 Formula
« Reply #54 on: October 19, 2021, 03:12:22 pm »
Im at a loss for words........ I was pulling my hair out and about to crush the car when Charlie stole it, said it was going to be fixed.......... I dont know how to thank everyone that was involved, almost the entire club helped with it, and a lot of folks on PFF. No Charlie, you cant have the torch or the 1911, but I promise I wont use them on this car.

Now that it runs correctly the next project will be the clutch. I may not have the availability until next year, we will see how it goes.

Again, thank you to everyone who has been helping with this car.
TEAMWORK!!
87 Fiero Coupe

Wreck It Ralph

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 932
  • Wreck it Ralph
    • View Profile
Re: Scott's 4.9 Formula
« Reply #55 on: October 19, 2021, 04:51:31 pm »
Im at a loss for words........ I was pulling my hair out and about to crush the car when Charlie stole it, said it was going to be fixed.......... I dont know how to thank everyone that was involved, almost the entire club helped with it, and a lot of folks on PFF. No Charlie, you cant have the torch or the 1911, but I promise I wont use them on this car.

Now that it runs correctly the next project will be the clutch. I may not have the availability until next year, we will see how it goes.

Again, thank you to everyone who has been helping with this car.

You are very welcome. It’s the least we can do for someone who shares so much with others.
1988 Fiero Base 4cyl 5spd.
1986 Fiero GT ... Parting out. Let me know if you need something.

Raydar

  • Paid Members
  • *****
  • Posts: 2,971
    • View Profile
Re: Scott's 4.9 Formula
« Reply #56 on: October 19, 2021, 06:38:20 pm »
Im at a loss for words........ I was pulling my hair out and about to crush the car when Charlie stole it, said it was going to be fixed.......... I dont know how to thank everyone that was involved, almost the entire club helped with it, and a lot of folks on PFF. No Charlie, you cant have the torch or the 1911, but I promise I wont use them on this car.

Now that it runs correctly the next project will be the clutch. I may not have the availability until next year, we will see how it goes.

Again, thank you to everyone who has been helping with this car.

I'm happy that it's sorted. I knew it could be fixed. I knew it would be fixed.
I'm just happy that it happened before you gave up on it completely.
Edit - I'm happy that it happened before anyone let you give up on it completely.
...

The Art Doctor

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 420
    • View Profile
Re: Scott's 4.9 Formula
« Reply #57 on: October 20, 2021, 04:10:34 pm »
Now when do I get to go for a ride?

Fierofool

  • Global Moderator
  • *****
  • Posts: 10,598
    • View Profile
    • Georgia Fiero Club
Re: Scott's 4.9 Formula
« Reply #58 on: October 22, 2021, 07:30:27 pm »
There is something I forgot to mention about TopNotch's contribution to putting the 4.9 Formula back on the road.  The agreement we had is that he would b paid for his labor and any parts he needed to purchase.  He refused any payment for his labor, and he worked on the car fairly constantly for the whole time he had it.  He donated his time to the cause. 

Ralph purchased the new, shorter belt needed and Ralph donated his fabrication skills to weld the bracket.  I think Jimmy might have been involved in some way, too. 
« Last Edit: October 22, 2021, 07:46:32 pm by Fierofool »
There are three kinds of men:

1.    The ones that learn by reading.
2.    The few who learn by observation.
3.    The rest of them have to pee on the electric fence and find out for themselves.    Will Rogers

scottb

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1,519
    • View Profile
Re: Scott's 4.9 Formula
« Reply #59 on: October 22, 2021, 10:44:28 pm »
Have yall figured up my bill yet?