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Author Topic: Scott's 4.9 Formula  (Read 5471 times)

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Fierofool

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Scott's 4.9 Formula
« on: September 20, 2021, 01:02:18 pm »
Some of you know that I have taken Scott's Formula to another location to have a fresh look at the problem.  I've given the individual the name of Troubleshooter. 

Some minor progress has been made and he recently used an oscilloscope to do some diagnostics.  Today I received an email as follows:

If I had a dual trace oscilloscope, I could compare traces, to see if the EST signal is advanced or retarded compared to the crank signal, and I could compare the cam signal to the crank signal, to see if there is one pulse for every 16 crank pulses. But I don't have one, and they are expensive.
I wonder if any of your members has a dual trace oscilloscope.

So, with that, does anyone have a dual-trace oscilloscope that I could borrow so he can do some more in-depth diagnostics?
There are three kinds of men:

1.    The ones that learn by reading.
2.    The few who learn by observation.
3.    The rest of them have to pee on the electric fence and find out for themselves.    Will Rogers

Wreck It Ralph

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Re: Scott's 4.9 Formula
« Reply #1 on: September 20, 2021, 10:45:26 pm »
I don’t but I’m glad progress is being made.
1988 Fiero Base 4cyl 5spd.
1986 Fiero GT ... Parting out. Let me know if you need something.

SpadeCustoms

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Re: Scott's 4.9 Formula
« Reply #2 on: September 21, 2021, 12:09:37 pm »
This the same one that is trying to be sold in the marketplace? Why make the effort if the owner is trying to sell it? Just curious.

Fierofool

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Re: Scott's 4.9 Formula
« Reply #3 on: September 21, 2021, 12:24:01 pm »
He's wanting to sell because he's frustrated with it.  The car was a daily driver before he got it.  At the time he got it, it was intermittently running on 4 cylinders, then on 8 then on 4.  No common cause.  We found that one of the injector fuses was making poor contact in the fuse block.  I thin the other problems have come about during the search for the cause of the failing injector bank.  I think the issue can be solved, so I took it to someone for a fresh look. 
There are three kinds of men:

1.    The ones that learn by reading.
2.    The few who learn by observation.
3.    The rest of them have to pee on the electric fence and find out for themselves.    Will Rogers

Fierofool

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Re: Scott's 4.9 Formula
« Reply #4 on: September 21, 2021, 08:59:20 pm »
A couple of update reports.

Sept. 19

This week's update. September 19

I used an oscilloscope to check some things. I checked with the
engine running with A-B jumpered, and then pulled the jumper out to see
if there was any difference. Here's what I checked.
Distributor Reference (pin D8 on the PCM). This is a crank position
signal, and should be a regular square wave with 8 pulses for every
crank rotation. This signal is supplied to the PCM by the distributor.
It looked OK for both cases, considering that the frequency wasn't
steady as the engine sputtered with the jumper out.

Electronic Spark Timing (pin C8 on the PCM). This is supposed to be like
the crank signal, but advanced or retarded as required by the engine.
This signal is supplied to the distributor by the PCM. This also looked
normal. Of course, I couldn't tell if it was advanced or retarded.

Cam Position Sensor (pin C5 on the PCM). According to the manual, this
is supposed to be one pulse for each time the intake valve for cylinder
one is about to open. This signal is supplied to the PCM by the
distributor. This also looked normal, but there's no way I could tell if
it was in the right place.
The belt was thrown when I pulled the jumper in this test, so that's all
I did for now.

There is another line, Bypass (C7 on the PCM), controls whether the ICM
uses the EST signal or the signal directly from the pickup coil to
trigger the spark coil. I need to measure that line with the jumper in
and out to see if that is the mechanism for using fixed park with A-B
jumpered. If so, that would mean that the PCM is doing nothing at all
with A-B jumpered, as far as ignition goes.

But the belt was thrown when I pulled the jumper in the Cam Position
test, so that's all I did for now.

Sept. 21

Today I found that the Bypass signal is always high, which means that the spark is always controlled by the EST siignal, regardless of whether A-B is jumpered or not. So the PCM must send the crank signal directly to the EST output when the jumper is in place, and controls it when the jumper is out. So the timing must be thrown way off when the jumper is out. The only thing that I can think of that would cause that is the cam signal must be way off.

BTW, if the Bypass line is disconnected, the engine really does run directly off the pickup coil, and the ICM shorts the EST line to ground. It actually runs quite smoothly this way, but at a fixed advance. The Bypass line must be a kind of limp home thing in case the PCM spark control completely fails. The Bypass line must be at 5 volts in order for the ICM to use the EST signal.

Also, I figured out why it is throwing the belt. Compared to a picture from Pennock's, the tensioner is in the wrong place. I'd have to make a new home-made bracket to fix it, and get a new belt, because the existing one would then be too long.

There are three kinds of men:

1.    The ones that learn by reading.
2.    The few who learn by observation.
3.    The rest of them have to pee on the electric fence and find out for themselves.    Will Rogers

Raydar

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Re: Scott's 4.9 Formula
« Reply #5 on: September 22, 2021, 07:00:50 am »
.... So the timing must be thrown way off when the jumper is out. The only thing that I can think of that would cause that is the cam signal must be way off.

If the cam sensor (which is actually in the distributor, and fixed to the distributor housing, I would expect) is keyed to cylinder 1, but it's way off, is it possible that the distributor was reinstalled a tooth off, relative to the cam? And then the plug wires installed advanced or retarded by one "tower", to compensate?
I'm thinking it could be blind luck that I got my distributor reinstalled "correctly", after I removed it. And may explain why I couldn't set my timing correctly with a light. (I set my timing by ear. It runs fine. But when I check it with the jumper/light, it says I have ~20 degrees base timing.)


...

Fierofool

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Re: Scott's 4.9 Formula
« Reply #6 on: September 22, 2021, 08:10:22 am »
I'm sure he's reading this board, but I'll point him here just in case. 

Thanks, Steve.   Makes sense.  I sent you a text about the bracket last night.
There are three kinds of men:

1.    The ones that learn by reading.
2.    The few who learn by observation.
3.    The rest of them have to pee on the electric fence and find out for themselves.    Will Rogers

Fierofool

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Re: Scott's 4.9 Formula
« Reply #7 on: September 22, 2021, 08:12:32 am »
He also told me last night that he had ordered a dual trace oscilloscope.
There are three kinds of men:

1.    The ones that learn by reading.
2.    The few who learn by observation.
3.    The rest of them have to pee on the electric fence and find out for themselves.    Will Rogers

PK

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Re: Scott's 4.9 Formula
« Reply #8 on: September 22, 2021, 08:16:55 am »
Excellent diagnostic work.  Good luck with it.  I can see why Scott got frustrated.

Sorry I can't offer any help.  My electrickery knowledge is nowhere near good enough.  I am sure my time electronics box has a dual osc function but not gonna be much use either from here!!

Fingers crossed

 

AJ_87Fiero

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Re: Scott's 4.9 Formula
« Reply #9 on: September 28, 2021, 11:52:26 am »
The last update and description is way too technical and complex for me - it's my new fav page!

If y'all are looking for important apprenticeship positions like a crash test dummy or a body to get/test the intensity of electric shocks, I'm in lol ;D :D.
87 Fiero Coupe

Fierofool

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Re: Scott's 4.9 Formula
« Reply #10 on: October 02, 2021, 08:46:05 pm »
An update for October 2. 

A new bracket was fabricated for the idler pulley.  A new and shorter belt was installed due to the repositioning of the pulley.  Now, regardless of what the engine does, the belt stays on the pulleys, with or without a jumper in place.

Another tech discovered the distributor was turned one full cylinder and the engine now runs equally well with or without the jumper.  Apparently it's necessary that the distributor be matched up perfectly to the cam.  In the next few days, the distributor will probably be pulled and moved at least 1 tooth.  At the present time, the distributor is turned to the limit the wires will allow, so the distributor would need to be reset. 
There are three kinds of men:

1.    The ones that learn by reading.
2.    The few who learn by observation.
3.    The rest of them have to pee on the electric fence and find out for themselves.    Will Rogers

Wreck It Ralph

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Re: Scott's 4.9 Formula
« Reply #11 on: October 02, 2021, 10:37:51 pm »
Great progress unknown soldiers!!!
1988 Fiero Base 4cyl 5spd.
1986 Fiero GT ... Parting out. Let me know if you need something.

PK

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Re: Scott's 4.9 Formula
« Reply #12 on: October 03, 2021, 02:08:42 am »
Brilliant news.  I'm sure many hours of thought and work have gone into this.

Raydar

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Re: Scott's 4.9 Formula
« Reply #13 on: October 03, 2021, 11:34:01 am »
Well... cool!
What else? Or is that it?
...

scottb

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Re: Scott's 4.9 Formula
« Reply #14 on: October 03, 2021, 01:13:00 pm »
It was advanced 360°? I'm not sure I understand what you mean by "distributor being turned one full cylinder"